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What to do when Klonopin/Doxepin stops working?

physicsstudent13

Senior Member
Messages
611
Location
US
does doxepin help as in give you deeper delta wave sleep?
klonopin decreases delta wave sleep but it seems to increase sleep quality for me.
 
Messages
98
I take the doxepin as it is supposed to potentize the klonopin. It is Paul Cheney's protocol, where he recommends taking doxepin, along with 200 mg magnesium glycinate, at bed time for sleep. I'm not sure how it effects delta wave sleep. I will say I rarely go into deep sleep, and like many, wake unrefreshed.
 

physicsstudent13

Senior Member
Messages
611
Location
US
Look my MD/Phd from MIT doesn't even know how klonopin works so how can this Cheney be so sure?
I don't know why my doctors prescribed klonopin to me now?
 
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physicsstudent13

Senior Member
Messages
611
Location
US
there are a lot of patients complaining about klonopin online. one could study this further if you had access to the database with R or SPSS. I wish I was a professional statistician or biostatistician
 
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Messages
54
THIS IS AN EDITED POST.

Sleep - first and foremost! First of all, apologies if I'm about to mention things you already know. If that's the case, maybe this will be of benefit to someone else.

I've found after years of trial and error that I need to cycle on medications with different mechanisms because I build up a tolerance to any one drug almost instantly. And there is just about nothing worse than withdrawing from a sleeping pill.

I alternate between Trazodone, Belsomra ($10 a pill!), and Ambien. You should NOT take Ambien during your withdrawal, because it works on GABA-A receptors, like benzos do. If you are super slender and need to gain weight, you can take stay on Doxepin. It helps with sleep but even (for me anyway) one pill a week can make you pack on weight that is almost impossible to lose. Benadryl has been linked to ALZ...

So, on with the benzo withdrawal. First, I strongly suggest you ask your doctor for a prescription of Diazepam (Valium). It has a long half-life and is indispensable for a more comfortable withdrawal. Take the Ashton Manual with you to the doctor if you have to. You'll need to find the equivalence of the benzos your taking now to the Diazepam. Again, contact me if you want more details on that. I"d be glad to talk with you.

EDIT: see my next post for the actual dosing instructions.

As far as Phenibut is concerned - it's works on GABA-b receptors and not GABA-a like Benzos and Z drugs do. It relaxes the muscles. It doesn't so much relax a racing mind. I use it once in a while. Baclofen and GHB also work on GABA-b. Phenibut is addictive, so don't take it more than once or twice a week.

CRAZY, all this stuff. Sometimes I wish I could go live on an island for a year - and not take any sleep meds with me. I feel that would ground me and reset my natural sleep rhythm. And maybe my fatigue would go away. One can dream...
 
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Messages
54
This is how you withdraw from Klonopin - it's based on the Ashton Manual protocol and it works.

Your dosage of Klonopin is equivalent to 5 mg. Valium.

1. Ask your doctor to give you both 2 mg. AND 1 mg doses of Valium.
(If your doctor doesn't want to do this, find a doctor who will. OR, give your doctor a copy of the Ashton Manual.) You need these two strengths in order to be able to cut the pills into specific dosages.

2. Start withdrawing
You will "cut" the Valium by .5 mg every 2 to 3 weeks. (I cut by .25 every 3 to 4 weeks because my system is super sensitive.)

So, your first cut will be TWO 2 mg. Valiums and 1/2 of 1 mg. Valium. That equals 4.5 mg.

"Hold" at this dosage for 2 or 3 weeks.

Cut the dosage by another .5 mg. ( = 4 mg.) and hold for 2 or 3 weeks. (Use a calendar to mark when you cut, so you know when to cut again).

Cut, hold, cut, hold until you get down to 1 mg. of Valium. (YAY! almost done!)

Cuts are kind of difficult for the first few days, but at least you know that you are healing and this is part of a normal withdrawal process.

The last 1 mg. if often the hardest for people. Some do a liquid titration. (No need to get a liquid form of Valium.)

The last 1mg takes around 110 days to do. If you are tapering super easily you can skip this step and just cut and hold until you're done (!), but if it's difficult, do the liquid titration. Here it is:

You will taper by 1 percent every night. (You can hold for a two or three days if you need to.)

This is what you will need. It may seem awkward the first few times but you'll get the hang of it:

1. a 100 ml measuring glass. (You can get this at Target for a few dollars)
2. a small mortar and pestle.
3. a little glass jar with a tight fitting lid. (A baby jar should work fine. It has to hold 100 ml. water)
4. two dosing syringes - they're free at a good pharmacy. Order them if you can't find a pharmacy to give them to you. You could also try a veterinarian's office.
a. a syringe that allows you to measure in 1 ml increments.
b. a 1 ml syringe that allows you to measure out the last .01 mg of Valium.

The first night you will crush to a fine powder 1 mg. valium with the mortar & pestle.

Put the powder in the little jar.

Measure out 100 ml water. (Some people think milk is necessary but I had zero problem with water)

Pour the water into the jar. Seal and shake vigorously.

With the larger syringe, pull out 1 ml. liquid and toss it (YAY! I loved that part.)

Drink the rest of the water.

The next night, follow the procedure with another 1 mg Valium and pull out 2 ml. liquid.
And on and on, cutting down by 1 ml a night until you get to .75 ml water ( = 3/4 Valium)

At this point you can crush 3/4 Valium, and then use 75 ml water, and go down by 1 ml a night until 1/2 Valium and 50 ml water, etc. You'll see what I'm talking about when you get to that point.

(It's important that your doctor is on the same page as you. S/he needs to understand your dosing schedule.)

Then, when you're done, you'll have one less thing to worry about. Congratulate yourself!

I hope this helps. Again, contact me if you have any questions. Anyone reading this is welcome to do that.
 
Last edited:
Messages
54
Hi Sushi,

I deleted another post of mine (not for giving out bad information) and am concerned that if I delete another one right away I will get kicked off the forum.... Will it be okay for me to remove two posts in one week?
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
I deleted another post of mine (not for giving out bad information) and am concerned that if I delete another one right away I will get kicked off the forum.... Will it be okay for me to remove two posts in one week?
Absolutely no problem! People often delete their posts. Just check to make sure that no one has quoted you cause then it won't make sense. If you have been quoted and it is something you want to delete, let me know in a Conversation or a chat.

Sushi
 

physicsstudent13

Senior Member
Messages
611
Location
US
wow that is a catastrophe if klonopin causes Alzheimer's disease. wow the 53% increase in Alzheimer's incidence(?) is horrific
Now I really wish I had been given a tracheostomy in the first 6 months after diagnosis

I mean any weird doctor can make up some voodoo 'potentiate' term without solid scientific evidence and my Columbia neurologist tells me that he doesn't know how it works
 
Last edited:
Messages
98
This is how you withdraw from Klonopin - it's based on the Ashton Manual protocol and it works.

Your dosage of Klonopin is equivalent to 5 mg. Valium.

1. Ask your doctor to give you both 2 mg. AND 1 mg doses of Valium.
(If your doctor doesn't want to do this, find a doctor who will. OR, give your doctor a copy of the Ashton Manual.) You need these two strengths in order to be able to cut the pills into specific dosages.

2. Start withdrawing
You will "cut" the Valium by .5 mg every 2 to 3 weeks. (I cut by .25 every 3 to 4 weeks because my system is super sensitive.)

So, your first cut will be TWO 2 mg. Valiums and 1/2 of 1 mg. Valium. That equals 4.5 mg.

"Hold" at this dosage for 2 or 3 weeks.

Cut the dosage by another .5 mg. ( = 4 mg.) and hold for 2 or 3 weeks. (Use a calendar to mark when you cut, so you know when to cut again).

Cut, hold, cut, hold until you get down to 1 mg. of Valium. (YAY! almost done!)

Cuts are kind of difficult for the first few days, but at least you know that you are healing and this is part of a normal withdrawal process.

The last 1 mg. if often the hardest for people. Some do a liquid titration. (No need to get a liquid form of Valium.)

The last 1mg takes around 110 days to do. If you are tapering super easily you can skip this step and just cut and hold until you're done (!), but if it's difficult, do the liquid titration. Here it is:

You will taper by 1 percent every night. (You can hold for a two or three days if you need to.)

This is what you will need. It may seem awkward the first few times but you'll get the hang of it:

1. a 100 ml measuring glass. (You can get this at Target for a few dollars)
2. a small mortar and pestle.
3. a little glass jar with a tight fitting lid. (A baby jar should work fine. It has to hold 100 ml. water)
4. two dosing syringes - they're free at a good pharmacy. Order them if you can't find a pharmacy to give them to you. You could also try a veterinarian's office.
a. a syringe that allows you to measure in 1 ml increments.
b. a 1 ml syringe that allows you to measure out the last .01 mg of Valium.

The first night you will crush to a fine powder 1 mg. valium with the mortar & pestle.

Put the powder in the little jar.

Measure out 100 ml water. (Some people think milk is necessary but I had zero problem with water)

Pour the water into the jar. Seal and shake vigorously.

With the larger syringe, pull out 1 ml. liquid and toss it (YAY! I loved that part.)

Drink the rest of the water.

The next night, follow the procedure with another 1 mg Valium and pull out 2 ml. liquid.
And on and on, cutting down by 1 ml a night until you get to .75 ml water ( = 3/4 Valium)

At this point you can crush 3/4 Valium, and then use 75 ml water, and go down by 1 ml a night until 1/2 Valium and 50 ml water, etc. You'll see what I'm talking about when you get to that point.

(It's important that your doctor is on the same page as you. S/he needs to understand your dosing schedule.)

Then, when you're done, you'll have one less thing to worry about. Congratulate yourself!

I hope this helps. Again, contact me if you have any questions. Anyone reading this is welcome to do that.
Thanks, this is very helpful. Did you take anything else to help you sleep as you withdrew from valium? I've tried valium before for sleep, and I would wake after an hour and be wide awake the rest of the night.
 
Messages
54
Thanks, this is very helpful. Did you take anything else to help you sleep as you withdrew from valium? I've tried valium before for sleep, and I would wake after an hour and be wide awake the rest of the night.
did i never respond to you? do you still have insomnia?
 
Messages
58
That's a lot of interesting information. I just want to say that I am still on 1mg clonopin. I've been on it for maybe 20 years now, not much choice. I need to sleep. I have never had any problem getting off it--I do get off it every so often if I start needing to take 1.5 mg.

But I'd like to mention something else that is helping. It was prescribed for pain and is a muscle relaxer. Maybe it would help someone else. Tizanidine/Zanaflex. I now take 2 mg Tiz. and one mg Clonopin and Taurine and Magnesium glycine. The Taurine helps me sleep and the Mag. glycine gives me a better sleep with dreams. I haven't had to increase the clonopin since I added the Tizanidine. I don't know much about the Tiz except that it works and it puts me back to sleep if I do wake up in the night.
 
Messages
54
that's excellent that you are able to stay on klonopin! you're a lucky one. and i am certainly in the small percentage who had horrific withdrawal symptoms. and thanks for mentioning Tizanidine. i'm going to look into that for sure.