What kind of peptide contaminant could be causing this reaction?

[marcjf]

Looking for some information that can help me investigate this. I am reacting badly to pretty much every peptide, and it is a very weird and delayed reaction, not an allergic one.

I develop some delayed tendonitis and muscle pain some days later after application, only seeming to subside days after stopping, although there may be some lasting damage.

I am not getting my peptides from a compounding pharmacy, and maybe that is the issue. I was getting them from suppliers widely accepted as legit, like Canlabs. Never from more obscure sellers.

For example, bought BPC-157 subq from CanLab. I mixed it with BAC water (Hospira brand). Started fine, and I was actually even getting benefits out of this peptide, no immediate reaction. 1 week into it and I started developing muscle/tendon issues. I stopped the peptide, and the issues persisted for a couple of days until subsided.

Then spent many months without trying anything, got spooked with injectables. Decided to try VIP Nasal spray (not injectable). This one is from Limitless, and they ship deionized water to be used with that. I was doing fine for 1.5 weeks. But once again the same muscle pain and tendonitis start showing, all over my body. I can feel the damage.

So annoying. My question is what could be causing this? I do not think it is the actual peptide. VIP, for example, is something that is produced endogenously. And it has a really short half-life of a couple of minutes, it does not build up. I feel like there is a toxin building up slowly in my body when I am using these.

I heard from at least one peptide doctor that these online sellers never test/remove endotoxins, so I am guessing that may be the issue. But I am not getting any fever, so I am not sure. Also it does not explain why only I get these issues with these providers, and 99% of other people do it just fine.

 

[SWAlexander]

can help me investigate this

Have you looked into "effects of collagen peptides on muscle damage or inflammation?"

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Peptides are short strings of amino acids, and your reaction might be due more to loading on one form of peptide that in some way interferes with the uptake or utilization, or even existence, of others that might be critical to muscle and tendon reactions ....

Also what @SWAlexander said ....

Not having best brain (or anything else) day, so am thinking 'horses' more than 'zebras' ....

VIP, for example, is something that is produced endogenously.

So is thryoid hormone, but too much or too little can be brutally unpleasant in its effects ....

 

[marcjf]

Peptides are short strings of amino acids, and your reaction might be due more to loading on one form of peptide that in some way interferes with the uptake or utilization, or even existence, of others that might be critical to muscle and tendon reactions ....

Also what @SWAlexander said ....

Not having best brain (or anything else) day, so am thinking 'horses' more than 'zebras' ....

So is thryoid hormone, but too much or too little can be brutally unpleasant in its effects ....

I am sorry, just not sure how anything that has been mentioned so far is related to my question.

No such thing as loading of VIP. It has a half-life of 2 minutes only. It is sold as a drug as well (ZYESAMI), and there is no mention of tendinopathies as a reported side effect. And even if there was, why would I get the same side effect from a completely different peptide (BPC-157) from a different supplier and used in a different manner (injectable)?

I would love to get some input of people that have experience with research peptides. I am pretty sure there is a contaminant somewhere, but do not know why it is only me reacting to it.

 

[mitoMAN]

Looking for some information that can help me investigate this. I am reacting badly to pretty much every peptide, and it is a very weird and delayed reaction, not an allergic one.

I develop some delayed tendonitis and muscle pain some days later after application, only seeming to subside days after stopping, although there may be some lasting damage.

I am not getting my peptides from a compounding pharmacy, and maybe that is the issue. I was getting them from suppliers widely accepted as legit, like Canlabs. Never from more obscure sellers.

For example, bought BPC-157 subq from CanLab. I mixed it with BAC water (Hospira brand). Started fine, and I was actually even getting benefits out of this peptide, no immediate reaction. 1 week into it and I started developing muscle/tendon issues. I stopped the peptide, and the issues persisted for a couple of days until subsided.

Then spent many months without trying anything, got spooked with injectables. Decided to try VIP Nasal spray (not injectable). This one is from Limitless, and they ship deionized water to be used with that. I was doing fine for 1.5 weeks. But once again the same muscle pain and tendonitis start showing, all over my body. I can feel the damage.

So annoying. My question is what could be causing this? I do not think it is the actual peptide. VIP, for example, is something that is produced endogenously. And it has a really short half-life of a couple of minutes, it does not build up. I feel like there is a toxin building up slowly in my body when I am using these.

I heard from at least one peptide doctor that these online sellers never test/remove endotoxins, so I am guessing that may be the issue. But I am not getting any fever, so I am not sure. Also it does not explain why only I get these issues with these providers, and 99% of other people do it just fine.

my friend with FQAD has the same exact problem. No matter if official pharmacy or selfmade peptide.
Our pharmacologist thinks its the PAR2 receptor (If im not mistaken) interacting with many peptides, so it might be a mast cell issue you are encountering.

BTW BPC, TB-4 and GHK is also prodouced endogenously - like many peptides. He flares up like you from all of them.

 

[marcjf]

my friend with FQAD has the same exact problem. No matter if official pharmacy or selfmade peptide.
Our pharmacologist thinks its the PAR2 receptor (If im not mistaken) interacting with many peptides, so it might be a mast cell issue you are encountering.

BTW BPC, TB-4 and GHK is also prodouced endogenously - like many peptides. He flares up like you from all of them.

Thank you very much for the information. It is very helpful to know that

Even though I never used fluoroquinolones, I was suspecting I have something similar to FAQD patients, since my tendons are flaring pretty much the same way those patients describe.

My next step was going to be trying from official compounding pharmacy, but I think I will not risk that.
It is so frustrating that I cannot use any of them.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

No such thing as loading of VIP. It has a half-life of 2 minutes only.

Since you took it for its beneficial effects, in spite of its 2 minute half-life, it isn't impossible that less-than-positive side effects could be expected from the same 2 minute window of action.

It is sold as a drug as well (ZYESAMI), and there is no mention of tendinopathies as a reported side effect.

There was no mention of the multiple deaths resulting from COX2 inhibitors either, until they were unignorable, or other FDA approved medications ....

I am sorry, just not sure how anything that has been mentioned so far is related to my question.

Good luck, and sorry I apparently wasted your time.

 

[marcjf]

my friend with FQAD has the same exact problem. No matter if official pharmacy or selfmade peptide.
Our pharmacologist thinks its the PAR2 receptor (If im not mistaken) interacting with many peptides, so it might be a mast cell issue you are encountering.

BTW BPC, TB-4 and GHK is also prodouced endogenously - like many peptides. He flares up like you from all of them.

Just came back here to say that I do not think it is an issue with the peptide itself. I've been doing BPC-157 orally from a trusted vendor, and I get no issues with it. The only issue is that it is less effective, and I have to take large amounts of it (1mg daily), which makes it expensive. I still get the benefits though, and there is good evidence that it has decent bio-availability. They are also selling the oral version with SNAC, to improve absorption.

 

[hapl808]

Just came back here to say that I do not think it is an issue with the peptide itself. I've been doing BPC-157 orally from a trusted vendor, and I get no issues with it. The only issue is that it is less effective, and I have to take large amounts of it (1mg daily), which makes it expensive. I still get the benefits though, and there is good evidence that it has decent bio-availability. They are also selling the oral version with SNAC, to improve absorption.

What kind of muscular (or also GI) benefits are you getting?

I had some vaguely similar responses to BPC and TB in the past. Same with HGH. I wouldn't say it gave me tendonitis or anything, but hard to describe. I already have severe muscular or connective tissue problems, so I can't stand or develop any strength. When I'd take BPC in particular, I'd feel more muscle pain for a few hours, but then a bit of relief. I wasn't sure if it was good or bad - maybe lowering inflammation overall? HGH did something similar to me, TB less so. Topical testosterone was the worst - made every tendon feel like it was tearing.

Not sure if that's helpful. Only peptides I've injected are BPC-157 and TB-500. Also injected HGH. I think that's it for injectables (which I hate, but desperation makes us seek things out).

 

[marcjf]

What kind of muscular (or also GI) benefits are you getting?

I had some vaguely similar responses to BPC and TB in the past. Same with HGH. I wouldn't say it gave me tendonitis or anything, but hard to describe. I already have severe muscular or connective tissue problems, so I can't stand or develop any strength. When I'd take BPC in particular, I'd feel more muscle pain for a few hours, but then a bit of relief. I wasn't sure if it was good or bad - maybe lowering inflammation overall? HGH did something similar to me, TB less so. Topical testosterone was the worst - made every tendon feel like it was tearing.

Not sure if that's helpful. Only peptides I've injected are BPC-157 and TB-500. Also injected HGH. I think that's it for injectables (which I hate, but desperation makes us seek things out).

I have no GI issues, so I cannot speak about that. From oral BPC-157, all I can notice in the short-term is a more potent anti-inflammatory effect. Pain in knees and elbows is virtually gone. Mostly my ankles are bothering me. Curcumin and Omega-3 were not making a dent on it. I am also noticing less crepitus, which is a joint crackling. I am hoping that the "healing" properties might be more evident in the medium to long-term.

I almost went for HGH, there is one clinic where I live that could provide me, but I got cold feet. I bought some MK-677 (Ibumotamoren) instead, and I was planning to try it.
By the way, have you found any test to be useful? Like MMP-9 or another one? I feel kind of lost. I mean, let's be honest, there are no real specialists on connective tissue disease anywhere.

Some good reference:
https://metabolichealing.com/extracellular-matrix-key-unravelling-chronic-disease/

 

[hapl808]

By the way, have you found any test to be useful? Like MMP-9 or another one? I feel kind of lost. I mean, let's be honest, there are no real specialists on connective tissue disease anywhere.

Totally lost. Gotten stuff from exome panels to whatever. Didn't even know there was an MMP-9 test? I've taken doxycycline in the past in higher doses and found it useful but hit a plateau quickly. Have considered trying low dose doxy for it's MMP-9 inhibition. But as usual, we're playing with stuff where we have no real idea - but the supposed 'experts' in the field either won't speak to us, or they don't exist AFAICT. I think the world of connective tissue disorders is way more varied than just hEDS or whatever, but it's poorly understood.

I didn't find HGH worth the trouble or expense. I was using real pharma rx'ed HGH. It wasn't too crazy expensive since I started at a low dose, but even there I started getting carpal tunnel before I noticed any real benefits other than slightly better sleep. The carpal tunnel at least went away when I stopped.

 

[marcjf]

Totally lost. Gotten stuff from exome panels to whatever. Didn't even know there was an MMP-9 test? I've taken doxycycline in the past in higher doses and found it useful but hit a plateau quickly. Have considered trying low dose doxy for it's MMP-9 inhibition. But as usual, we're playing with stuff where we have no real idea - but the supposed 'experts' in the field either won't speak to us, or they don't exist AFAICT. I think the world of connective tissue disorders is way more varied than just hEDS or whatever, but it's poorly understood.

I didn't find HGH worth the trouble or expense. I was using real pharma rx'ed HGH. It wasn't too crazy expensive since I started at a low dose, but even there I started getting carpal tunnel before I noticed any real benefits other than slightly better sleep. The carpal tunnel at least went away when I stopped.

I was surprised how bad the side effect profile of HGH was, considering it is supposed to be a "healing" compound. I heard about low-dose doxy too (Periostat), but haven't given it a shot.

 

[hapl808]

I was surprised how bad the side effect profile of HGH was, considering it is supposed to be a "healing" compound. I heard about low-dose doxy too (Periostat), but haven't given it a shot.

Yeah. I tend to be very careful about trying various medications because often you look at the side effect profile and it's pretty concerning. I have some Low Dose Abilify I've been thinking to try, but concerned about potential long term effects if it doesn't work.

Same with antibiotics. That's been by far the most helpful thing for me, but obviously it also kinda disrupts the microbiome. With all our microbiome research, we still seem to know very little about how to positively affect it.

 

[shakyradical]

I am sorry, just not sure how anything that has been mentioned so far is related to my question.

No such thing as loading of VIP. It has a half-life of 2 minutes only. It is sold as a drug as well (ZYESAMI), and there is no mention of tendinopathies as a reported side effect. And even if there was, why would I get the same side effect from a completely different peptide (BPC-157) from a different supplier and used in a different manner (injectable)?

I would love to get some input of people that have experience with research peptides. I am pretty sure there is a contaminant somewhere, but do not know why it is only me reacting to it.

did you source from a company that provided testing information?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

This is one of those off-the-wall observations that could well signify a steaming pile of …. nothing. But I was thinking about the traditional received wisdom regarding taking large amounts of isolated B vitamins, which result in nudging other B’s out of the picture, and creating often severe deficits in them with the expected results.

Not sure if this would apply to isolated amino acids or the peptide chains formed from them, since they exist in nature. I know you know this, but for future readers who may or may not, once you ingest protein, your body breaks that pinto bean chimichanga or juicy steak (and Lordy, how I wish I had one) down into amino acids, and then reconfigures those into peptide chains, each with a different work order for a different part of your system. Think of it as your body;s Temporary Employment Office ....


IS THAT A PISTIL IN YOUR POCKET OR A HYBRID DAISY-DRANGEA...
But the difference could lie in the alterations made to the aminos in the laboratory, and the strength of each of those altered aminos in relation one to the other, as well as how much they’ve been altered to conform to the overall plan ….. cause we all know man’s (this includes women’s) ability to take a good idea, run it thru the lab and their overheated expectations and imaginings for what would constitute a better world, and come up with Frankenstein or a three headed donkey with oboes for ears.

Taking highly specialized and lab-fiddled strains, like the heavily laboratoried ones you mention, could well result in an imbalance of some sort, that could create odd and hard to decipher expressions of peculiar side effects, possibly like the ones you;ve mentioned, and an indefinable sense of something wrong with no signposts to indicate what might be causing that …. just that vague sense of yuck …. and ewwwww ….. and WTF ????

Sorry for the vague post, just don’t have the energy or current mental capacity for a deeper, more science-y one, and am not sure I really expressed what I meant here. But it be the best I can manage …. am relying on your knowledge to fill in the gaps. Just wanted to give you a new way to look at this that precludes some kind of exotic, unbeatable toxic contamination (always scary) or yet another betrayal by our bodies, which ME seems to have given full license to produce …..

AND ON ANOTHER NOTE ENTIRELY ....
Would also like to say how impressed I was with the experimentation expressed in the responses here, and the recognition of the impossibility of knowing anything anout where that experimentation would lead, given the grievous lack of any readily apparent knowledge in the medical community, and the courage it takes to take those leaps unaided, unsupported, and unheralded by anything other than our own little community here, as well as Health Rising, Sci4ME, and the Discord and Facebook communities, all of them struggling against the same obstacles we're burdened with ....

ONWARD AND UPWARD .... OR POSSIBLY SIDEWAYS ... OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER .....