What does sleep deprivation in body? - I had almost remission for 2,5 month

[vision blue]

Rapamycin can akso stimulate the immube system. Its dose dependent and not in an intuitive way. Just 1 mg once or did you try more than once

By metabolic profile, did youndo a urinary amino acid test? Thats the one used for metabolomics. If you have one of those when you were in remission then thats awesome! Easy now to compare at any timr.

If youre realky lucky, perhaps now just one night of 3 hours of sleep will be sufficient for bodybto say oh thats back again, better do this…

 

[lenora]

Thanks @MartinK. I wish it would improve too, but now I'm old enough that a shortage of sleep can legitimately be blamed on "old age."

Speaking of which, even from my 50's that was the answer generally given by my doctors (except my neurologist....he took it very seriously and just couldn't figure it out). Well, I've given up on that now.

I know I shouldn't.....slap my hand (if you must), but I would like to wish all of our fine men and their fathers, a Happy Fathers Day. Our daughters are MIA. Glad to have you aboard again, Martin. Yours, Lenora

 

[Wishful]

Your improvement with T3 - are you hypothyroid or is it fine and you tried it anyway?

T2 (3-5 diiodothyronine). T4 and T3 had no effect on my ME. As for hypothyrodism, my Tsh is elevated, but I think that's due to ME's effect on the kynurenine pathway. I tried T2 because iodine gave temporary remission, and iodine doesn't do much other than produce thyroid hormones, and T4 and T3 didn't help.

 

[Wayne]

I have to keep looking and trying.

Hi @MartinK -- When I first saw this thread, it reminded me of a remarkable testimonial by a man I read many years ago who also had his health improve significantly by sleeping less. I was quite intrigued by his story, and looked it over and considered it very carefully at the time.

I've tried to find his story several times since seeing your thread, feeling you would find it quite insightful. Alas, I just wasn't able to find it, even though I checked with several AI websites, which all said sleep deprivation is almost universally bad. But it wasn't the case with this guy.

What was bad for him was sleeping what would be considered a normal amount of sleep. I'm pretty sure he felt he had ME/CFS, but I'm not 100% certain. What I do recall was that his health symptoms were extremely debilitating, making it very difficult for him to function. And that when he about halved the normal 7-8 hours, he felt totally well.

One thing I recall fairly clearly is that he experimented a lot with the amount of sleep he would have, and carefully documented how it affected him. As I recall, it wasn't an easy undertaking for him, which I think last several months. He initially longed to be able to sleep more, but it became clear to him that there was always a price to pay when he slept too much.

Long story short, he eventually discovered that he could only sleep 3-4 hours a day if he wanted to live a "normal" life of feeling healthy. Also as I recall, he eventually adapted quite well to his not needing to sleep 7-8 hours daily, and learned to fill his time with activities that he might not have otherwise undertaken.

I highlighted your comment about "keep looking and trying", because that's what I remember this guy did. And I think he did it over a period of several months. It seems he was eventually able to adjust to it all physically, emotionally, and more. Not only adjust, but to be able to enjoy good health again. It really was quite a story. I wish I would have been able to find it for you.

 

[MartinK]

@vision blue I haven't read about rapamycin stimulating the immune system. Interesting... Do you know any study about it?
I tried only one 1mg pill 1x. Due to the negative effect that came in a few hours and lasted almost a month, I was afraid to try it again.
However, I'm assuming that just one tablet didn't have a chance to cause a strong effect on the immune system, so I'm wondering if I'm just intolerant to the stuff?

@Wishful oh, sorry... I was mistaken.
My mom takes for thyroid Letrox (levothyroxin). However I assume it's something else? I honestly don't have much luck finding T2 trade names.

@Wayne This is amazing! That sounds like a very similar story! Wish i could find it and get in touch with that person... pls was it on PR? You know?
It's a weird thing to say and it doesn't make much sense, but it seems to me that the beautiful repaired sleep just put me back in the wrong ruts over time...

In any case, it is also necessary to realize that a long-term lack of sleep can be risky for health - that's why I'm trying to find out how the improvement can be induced even without sleep deprivation.

 

[Wishful]

@MartinK Amazon had a T2 product last time I checked, but that was a year or so ago. It was marketed for bodybuilding. As a test to see whether T2 has a noticeable effect for you, try iodine, since some gets turned into T2. A small drop of tincture of iodine was as effective for me as a 100 mcg T2 capsule. Whether iodine is as effective as T2 for anyone but me is another question. It was really helpful for me.

 

[Florida Guy]

I found that losing a night of sleep would wipe out depression temporarily. But I found better ways of dealing with it. I read somewhere an experiment in which patients with some condition, I forget what it was maybe schizophrenia, were examined after sleepless nights and they had less symptoms. But the improvement was only temporary. You pay for it with days of feeling off, afterward

Many writers or artists have spoken about seeing their work "in the cold gray light of dawn" and gotten fresh perspectives, perhaps because of the lost nights sleep.

In your case it may have been what sent you into recovery but we may never know. Even if it worked once, its unlikely to work again or work consistently for anyone else. So many people have seen improvement with things that worked once or for a short while and never again. But keep looking

 

[Hopeful1976]

I too feel better when my body sleeps less - when my body gives me deep sleep, I'm normally much more poorly. When my body only gives me a little sleep, or disrupted sleep, I feel better. I've often thought of this correlation. It's definately evidence of something significant. I'm sure of it

 

[Wayne]

I'm trying to find out how the improvement can be induced even without sleep deprivation.

Good luck with finding that! -- I just queried an AI website, and got the following:

There are a few online forums and communities that discuss people's experiences with sleeping less than the average recommended amount:​

​

The Apnea Board forum has a thread titled "Sleeping Less" where some users report sleeping less (around 5-6 hours per night) after starting CPAP therapy for sleep apnea, despite previously aiming for 7-8 hours of sleep. They discuss feeling less tired and having improved sleep quality despite the reduced sleep duration.​

​

On the Warrior Forum, there is a thread asking "Can you adapt to less sleep?" where the original poster wonders if it's possible for the body to adapt and function well on less sleep than the typical 7-9 hour recommendation, citing the idea of boosting productivity. However, this thread does not contain any specific testimonials or experiences from people successfully adapting to chronically reduced sleep.​

 

[Rufous McKinney]

when I woke up around 4am

I notice that.........I can feel really alert and my vision is focusing at 4- 5- 6 am. Then I often go back to sleep, and several hour later wake up / my eyes start pouring liquid and I feel run over. Maybe its a cortisol thing.

 

[JES]

I found that losing a night of sleep would wipe out depression temporarily. But I found better ways of dealing with it. I read somewhere an experiment in which patients with some condition, I forget what it was maybe schizophrenia, were examined after sleepless nights and they had less symptoms. But the improvement was only temporary. You pay for it with days of feeling off, afterward

Many writers or artists have spoken about seeing their work "in the cold gray light of dawn" and gotten fresh perspectives, perhaps because of the lost nights sleep.

In your case it may have been what sent you into recovery but we may never know. Even if it worked once, its unlikely to work again or work consistently for anyone else. So many people have seen improvement with things that worked once or for a short while and never again. But keep looking

Hm, in my case there is no penalty afterward. I get the improvement from one sleepless night that extends a day or two forward and then it wears off. My only worry is the long-term health impact from doing this and of course the day(s) you choose to practice this sleep deprivation you don't feel very well due to... lack of sleep, although even this lack of sleep state may be better than what the normal state is for many of us.

 

[MartinK]

@Wishful I will definitely try the iodine tincture - might be a good test to see how my thyroid reacts... maybe that will reveal something.

@Florida Guy antidepressant effects after short sleep deprivation are indisputable...yeah, I found some studies about it.

@Hopeful1976 and if you get little sleep, is it not accompanied by PEM at all? Because the insomnia gave me massive PEM but it just all went away after 14 days and I was almost healthy….
Yes, it's definately evidence of something significant...
Do you experiment with it often?

@Wayne thank you, at the same time, I try to reach out to different groups that deal with life hacks - different sleep management, etc.
I tried searching mainly on reddit, but I gotta keep trying... the more discussion the better the list of what would be worth trying to induce this condition without sleep deprivation.

@Rufous McKinney and have you tried raising or lowering cortisol in any way? Wondering how to do this without resorting to hydrocortisone.

The provisional findings are clear: quite a few people feel better with less sleep in the short term, but no one has experience of improvement after prolonged sleep deprivation. Or maybe I don't know that person yet...

 

[Viala]

I wonder if that's a typical reaction in ME/CFS. I also felt better after changing my diet a few times, so change in our habits itself could induce temporary remission. Any change, also environmental. Could be stress related and stress also raises cortisol.

 

[Wayne]

I gotta keep trying... the more discussion the better the list of what would be worth trying to induce this condition without sleep deprivation.

Hey @MartinK -- I gotta admire your determination! I've actually come up with a number of "hacks" that when "tweaked" just right, give me periods of feeling almost completely well. Some of what I do includes "strategic eating", energy balancing techniques, lymphatic massage, whole body massage, stretching, walking, earthing, break from EMFs, being in nature, self acupuncture, PEMF, etc. I plan to keep adding to this repertoire with things such as red light therapy, ozone saunas, etc.

The ones I do on a daily basis that seem to make the most difference are--on average--eating only once per day, also known as "One Meal A Day" (OMAD). Another important one is the energy balancing techniques. A third important one is doing a daily "therapeutic enema" (with coffee, probiotics, Vit. C, Methylene Blue, iodine, and much more). The Methylene Blue and Vit. C especially seem to do wonders for my brain. I also do mHBOT at home about every other day, and that's very often the catalyst that tips me into wellness for a few hours.

On average, I'd say I'm able to feel close to being completely well about 1/3 of the time. The other 2/3 of my time is trying to tweak things just right so I can get to that "sweet spot". In a sense, it's a lot of effort, but also in a sense, it's quite interesting, and even enjoyable. To a large degree, it involves marshaling all my resources to find a deep healing calm within myself, which includes the physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual, etc.

It's a fairly creative tweaking process I work on literally every day, and often feel when I get up in the morning and get ready for my day that I'm actually "heading for the lab". I've had so much cumulative success over the years, that I feel confident that going forward, I'll be able to continue to discover new ways to improve my health. I'm 72 now, and in much, much better health, and far more functional than I was 20-30 years ago, when I felt I was close to dying.

 

[vision blue]

Youvsaid: “haven't read about rapamycin stimulating the immune system. Interesting... Do you know any study about it?
I tried only one 1mg pill 1x. Due to the negative effect that came in a few hours and lasted almost a month, I was afraid to try it again.
However, I'm assuming that just one tablet didn't have a chance to cause a strong effect on the immune system, so I'm wondering if I'm just intolerant to the stuff?

Yes , heres one paper that talks about it
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35973640/
Lower doses may stumukaye immune system higher doses supress but its probwbly more complicated since ive seen a paper arguing it supresses sone parts of the immune system but stimulates others

But yiur point is a good one- that reactionmay not have been immune mediated at all since it was just one pill one time suggesting it. I hsve wanted to try it but react so strongky, usually badly, to meds i havent tried

 

[SleepingGirl]

This is interesting. I have also found after I've had minimal sleep the night before there is a 60% change I'll feel way better then if I had gotten a full night sleep. The % rate might depend on how many hours I've had maybe as I've never paid close attention to it. I had a night recently where I swear I didn't sleep at all and I woke up feeling pretty good. It never lasts though, but I haven't attempted to have constant sleep deprivation. I might try to experiment a bit with this.

 

[lenora]

I still keep wondering if ECT (shock treatment) would help us in any way? It's now down to a fine science....say a businessman will go first thing in the morning, have his treatment and walk out and go to work.

To be honest, I'm surprised this hasn't been tried on us and have felt that way for a long time. Sure, there wouldn't be any volunteers.....I would, only because I've seen it work patients....perhaps others have knowledge that I don't.

I don't see the point of spending hours trying to fall asleep, when I could actually be doing something quiet and soothing, feel sleepy and then head into bed and actually fall asleep. My natural sleep cycle would be from 4:00 a.m. to 9:00 or 10:00. However, as I've said before, the rest of the world just doesn't work that way, so we have to accommodate it. I'm not one for naps and I truly dread having anesthesia.....that can mess me up for a week or more.

Perhaps going from jobs requiring physical labor to something more sedentary has messed up our sleep cycle, although mental work can definitely wear one out.....perhaps it's not in the same way and it will take centuries to fully adjust to it. Thoughts???? Hope you're at least fairly well. Yours, Lenora

 

[Garz]

i think there may be some confusion here with other forms of transcranial stimulation

Electro Convulsive Treatment is normally only given today with anaesthetic and muscle relaxants - due to the convulsions it induces

its hard to see anyone undergoing that on their way to work

transcranial DC stimulation or Transcranial electromagnetic stimulation are other much milder techniques which could be/are used without anaesthetic.

my Grandmother was given ECT for depression during menopause in the 1950's - her hair went white in 6 weeks and she could no longer recognise my mother during visits, she died in the institution shortly after.
The doctors were very enthusiastic about it as a "treatment" at the time.

 

[JES]

i think there may be some confusion here with other forms of transcranial stimulation

Electro Convulsive Treatment is normally only given today with anaesthetic and muscle relaxants - due to the convulsions it induces

Yes. The type of treatment that the thread starter did in addition to sleep deprivation was tDCS. tDCS operates at weak direct currents between 0.5 to 4 mA. The treatment is considered as safe that you can even get prescribed a tDCS device for home use in my country for treatment of depression.

 

[Faith2007]

I just wanted to include this article so you could see what a combination of stress and sleep deprivation affects; it's not just metabolism: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1984006315000607?via=ihub
The diagram is particularly good in showing what is increasing and decreasing.

I hope you find some answers you are looking for.