Wessely psychologises Chemical warfare

Messages
71
Likes
0
a point

Contributors: EJ undertook the research, analysis of the data, and wrote the paper. IP collected the data. SW helped to design the study and commented on various drafts of the paper. EJ is guarantor.
Funding: Economic and Social Research Council and the Ministry of Defence


Here are some quotes from the paper:

Repeated follow-ups during the period between the wars enabled us to exclude veterans who had tuberculosis, chronic bronchitis, or emphysema associated with gassing
Hmmmm.... So with "repeated follow-ups," which probably means time to find and correctly diagnose people with physical disease, people with physical diseases were excluded.

Okay. So maybe, SW, you should consider the fact proven right here that you don't know everything about someone's physical condition in a first interview. Huh?

I hope this point isn't watered down by my severe brainfog.
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
184
Likes
15
Location
Czech Republic, EU
Hi Maarten,

it's invigorating to see another atheist on this board :Retro smile:

I think there would be one plausible explanation of the so called "shell shock" of the WWI. Phosgene was introduced during this war. The primary mode of its lethal effect was time delayed virtual destruction of lungs. But it certainly had another physiological effects on CNS. I have read stories about the phosgene affected soldiers who for several days presented with elevated mood, euphoria, mania or extreme agitation before the signs of lungs affection occurred and death supervened.

And I think what Wessely says about the illnesses induced by the fear of chemical weapons is nonsense. I remember that when I was a kid living in a communist (or pseudocommunist) Czechoslovakia we often had to attend compulsory exercises that simulated chemical attacks from the "imperialists"-it included running with a gas mask (officers from the Ministry of Defense would come regularly to each classroom and measured the face of every kid so that a gas mask that would fit be obtainable for everyone), protecting airtight all parts of the body from Tabun, Sarin and Soman, that could leak through the skin and instantly cause horrible death-so we were told (and it is true BTW). I remember we and our teachers enjoyed it very much, it was a pleasant "adventure" and a possibility to escape the school, not at all a source of any anxiety or a disease.
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
184
Likes
15
Location
Czech Republic, EU
I also remember the state propaganda of American pilots dropping poisoned candies all over the country to deliberately poison children. And this wasn't some stupid internet hoax about HIV laced needles, it was official state propaganda in official press radio and TV. We simply didn't eat any candy we happened to find on the ground--and that was all.
 

akrasia

Senior Member
Messages
215
Likes
466
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/04/07/911.rescue.lungs/

One of the things that has always struck me about these theories, apart from their non falsifiability, is that they take place in a social context where debate doesn't exist, or where dissent is grotesquely characterized and dispatched to the margins. So, disagreement is framed as, "You actually believe that? Where is your proof" When proof is offered it's sneered at, and often proof if it is available at all, is only available belatedly. The only subjectivity that matters is Wessley et cie and his enablers; anyone else's experience is framed as a neurotic ,whinging mess. At least with the advent of xmrv we can debate methods and facts, not projections and ravings, couched in the KCL(KFC?) tone of unimpeachable cognitive authority.
 

Mithriel

Senior Member
Messages
688
Likes
819
Location
Scotland
I have often wondered what they actually expect us to DO.

When my neurologist told me I didn't have anything wrong with me, what did he expect? Did he want me to get out of my wheelchair, say "Thank you, Doctor" and walk out of the hospital, cured?

I often think that, in olden days, magicians and shamans did a ceremony over their patients before they declared them well. We don't even get that. :Retro smile:

Mithriel
 
G

Gerwyn

Guest
I couldn't keep this one to myself when I saw it. Wessely has done some work for the UK military and was their main (or certainly one of their main) Gulf War Illness deniers.

This lovely little paper is interesting, and has some correlations with the CBT School rubbish on ME/CFS. It is basically a political paper, which becomes more obvious towards the end when he makes a reference to the continuing ill health of Gulf war veterans, which he is clearly hinting that they are really suffering from the psychological effects of warfare, or that they are misattributing poor health to their Gulf War service.

In this paper Wessely is not cited as the main writer, though his finger prints and ideology are all over it.

Contributors: EJ undertook the research, analysis of the data, and wrote the paper. IP collected the data. SW helped to design the study and commented on various drafts of the paper. EJ is guarantor.
Funding: Economic and Social Research Council and the Ministry of Defence


Here are some quotes from the paper:



[who wouldn't be afraid of chemical weapons?]



[It was the horrific effects of it and not just deaths I think that concerned people. Also these things are deadly if you inhaled enough, so it was hardly abnormal to be worried about them]



[So they tried to pick people who were exposed but deliberately left out people who were worst affected. Talking about loading up your sample (a bit like the way they exclude people with physical signs from CFS diagnosis/studies), and then go on to waffle about abnormal beliefs. And of course if you exlude the sickest it takes the concerns of everyone else out of context and makes them look abnormal for being worried about it.]




[But these people may have had limited/unsatisfactory medical care, so even if there were other possible explanations for conditions they experienced, they may not have been given them. This doesn't mean they have psychological issues]



[So lets try to exclude all the really sick people as they might mess up the study]



[But they excluded the sickest so the results were a forgone conclusion. Also in some cases the effects of these weapons would be permanent, so it was not irrational or illogical to be concerned about it]
I thought that weeselly engaged in chemical warfare .his colleagues alledgedly find the antmosphere fills with carbon dioxide and methane if he is in room for very long.The smell of rotten eggs has also been mentioned.it is claimed that many rooms have had to be evacuated because of danger to health and permanent damage to the sense of smell
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
184
Likes
15
Location
Czech Republic, EU
Hi Maarten,

I have read only Orwell's "Animal Farm".

It would be great if you also had some good friends in Sayeret Matkal just to poke some fun at SW ;)
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
184
Likes
15
Location
Czech Republic, EU
Hello Maarten,

my hint to an IDF unit was just a joke, of course, and perhaps an impolite one. I gained my atheism at www.infidels.org after many years of reading about religion vs. nontheism. Now when I am desperate of being sick I find some consolation in thinking about the times when I was both sick and believed I will go the Hell. But I don't want to underestimate the role of spirituality or religion in anyone else's life.