Weight training with CFS ?

[*GG*]

Yes, baby steps. I started off slowly going back to the gym.

Are you saying you did the math, and in My case the factor Times 180 would be 0.77?

GG

Edit: So perhaps people could slowly nudge up their values. Say 0.65, no significant ill effect, then up to 0.70 etc...?

 

[Dechi]

@*GG* Yes, I did math and you're at 77%. That is very good too ! How long can you stay at 139 for ?

 

[ryan31337]

@*GG* they out your AT at 77% ! Good to know that it can be more than 60% with that disease. At 77%, mine would be 132, which would explain why I can go over 120 sometimes when I bike and not crash.

I've not done a 2-day CPET but I have done one after good rest and a contrasting one with mild PEM (+ on low dose beta-blockers). The well rested one I achieved 95% of predicted HR @VO2max and 80% of predicted HR @AT, so 179bpm and 151bpm respectively. So yeah, entirely possible to have a normal HR response on day 1 if well rested.

Compare that to my mild-PEM CPET and you see significant chronotropic incompetence, which is the finding of one of the 2-day studies published. I only achieved 78% of predicted HR @VO2max and 52% of predicted HR @AT, so 147bpm and 98bpm respectively. The beta-blockers would've obviously influenced this but unless I have some super sensitivity to them it shouldn't have made that big of a difference I don't think.

HR is only one small part of the picture though. Even on the good day with normal HR response I still showed significant cardiovascular limitation, my O2 pulse was only 62% of predicted @VO2Max and 40% @AT, putting my VO2max @64% predicted and my AT @ 35% predicted. Life is no fun with an AT in the low teens (ml/kg/min), you're hitting it washing the dishes and making dinner :thumbdown: On the other hand we should count ourselves lucky we can do that much...

 

[Dechi]

@ryan31337 you are right and I count my blessings every day ! I just wish this test was available here so I could have more insight into my capabilities amd how to get the best of it. On the other had, I would be very scared of the PEM that comes with it. I am managing my symptoms and pacing well enough now that I haven't had one in 3 months.

 

[*GG*]

@*GG* Yes, I did math and you're at 77%. That is very good too ! How long can you stay at 139 for ?

No sure, probably for a good while but under 1 hour? Oh, so you don't mean above that? See the previous sentence.

GG

 

[panckage]

knowing my muscle weakness has not improved at all in the past 18 months, am I at risk of getting worse by doing gym work ?

I think you should be OK. Strength training seems to be easier on us than cardio.

I got so weak I couldn't even sit down without falling into a chair. About 2-3 years later I am happy to say I have recovered my strength through strength training. Deconditioning caused a huge decrease in my abilities

I like body weight exercises. An exercise ball is great if you don't have one. Just sitting on it is great for strengthening postural muscles. As mentioned isometric exercises are great for rehab, and have the side effect of requiring less energy as well

 

[Dechi]

@panckage Great news, thanks ! Happy to see you're doing better also !

 

[Little Bluestem]

I just wish this test was available here so I could have more insight into my capabilities amd how to get the best of it. On the other had, I would be very scared of the PEM that comes with it.

You can do the test just to anaerobic threshold, not to VO2max. That is less hard on you.

An exercise ball is great if you don't have one. Just sitting on it is great for strengthening postural muscles.

I use my exercise ball as my computer chair.

 

[Dechi]

Thanks @Little Bluestem ! I didn't know the tests could be done separately !

 

[cman89]

I apologize for those severely ill. My post is for those who are somewhat able to do exercise. I haven't been sick long, three years, so I am still learning how to manage this illness. So far it took me about 1 1/2 years to stop having PEM. I attribute it to taking Nimodipine, which I started in march at a very low dose. In may I had my last 4-5 days of PEM. No more since. That's the most improvement I have had, and it is a lot. My energy is still low and all my dreaded symptoms reappear when I Have stress and or lack of sleep.

I am trying to go back to work before winter, so I started walking or biking (16 km/h) for about 50 minutes, about 5 times per week. After 6-7 weeks of that and it's going fairly well, but not perfect, I figure I have to do more if I want to be able to do my 12 hour long day when I work. So I am adding a short session to the gym to the walk, 4-5 times a week.

But, and it's a big " but ", my main symptom these days is muscle weakness in all my body, even my hand, mouth, feet, everywhere. Mostly the legs, of course, they have the biggest muscles. I used to do weight lifting when I wasn't sick, so this is something I know well. I am using my heart monitor to stay under my anaerobic threshold.

So here is my question : knowing my muscle weakness has not improved at all in the past 18 months, am I at risk of getting worse by doing gym work ? Or is this muscle weakness just something I have to learn to live with and exercise will be of benefit, because I am improving my fitness level ? I should also say I Have no pain, other than the pain from sitting too much... And I am a woman, if it matters.

Thanks for your input !

I can mantain weight training if and only if I keep up on my supplements. Those give me the support to avoid crashing down. As always, listen to your body and rest when/if needed, start with anaerobic exercise, and keep aerobic exercise to a minimum. This can help reduce excessive cortisol release, along with promoting anabolism , as long as you have enough proper hormone functioning left. The supplements "save" my mitochondria, and the rest is how I address the hormonal side. I am looking at trying some hormonal supplements myself, but that also has to be gently approached. If you feel yourself being much weaker coming back after a few days rest, then rest more. DO not keep pushing it unless you have supplemental help already occurring.

 

[cman89]

I apologize for those severely ill. My post is for those who are somewhat able to do exercise. I haven't been sick long, three years, so I am still learning how to manage this illness. So far it took me about 1 1/2 years to stop having PEM. I attribute it to taking Nimodipine, which I started in march at a very low dose. In may I had my last 4-5 days of PEM. No more since. That's the most improvement I have had, and it is a lot. My energy is still low and all my dreaded symptoms reappear when I Have stress and or lack of sleep.

I am trying to go back to work before winter, so I started walking or biking (16 km/h) for about 50 minutes, about 5 times per week. After 6-7 weeks of that and it's going fairly well, but not perfect, I figure I have to do more if I want to be able to do my 12 hour long day when I work. So I am adding a short session to the gym to the walk, 4-5 times a week.

But, and it's a big " but ", my main symptom these days is muscle weakness in all my body, even my hand, mouth, feet, everywhere. Mostly the legs, of course, they have the biggest muscles. I used to do weight lifting when I wasn't sick, so this is something I know well. I am using my heart monitor to stay under my anaerobic threshold.

So here is my question : knowing my muscle weakness has not improved at all in the past 18 months, am I at risk of getting worse by doing gym work ? Or is this muscle weakness just something I have to learn to live with and exercise will be of benefit, because I am improving my fitness level ? I should also say I Have no pain, other than the pain from sitting too much... And I am a woman, if it matters.

Thanks for your input !

How do you think the nimodipine is helping? Ive never heard of that drug before.

 

[Dechi]

How do you think the nimodipine is helping? Ive never heard of that drug before.

I think it is helping tremendously. I think it stopped me from crashing. I stopped having PEM after taking it at a steady dose. You can read all about it in Dr Downing-Orr's book : https://www.amazon.com/Beating-Chro...95703&sr=1-1&keywords=beating+chronic+fatigue

I followed Dr Mason Brown's protocol in this same book.

What are the supplements you are taking ? I take Q10, L-carnitine, Magnesium for mitochondrias. Small doses because I am hypersensitive to supplements and meds.

 

[cman89]

do you mind summarizing, though? The medication is a blood pressure medication, which could conceivably help with consistent O2 and nutrient delivery to cells, but if your mitochondria are not pumping out enough ATP, you will overload your body's energy production systems and crash. I take B complex, B12 as methylcobalamin, Methylfolate, PQQ, and a few others on a need based protocol. ALA for example is something I use occasionally.

 

[Dechi]

@cman89 Summarizing what, the protocol in the book ? About nimotop, from what I understand, it is used for recovering AVC patients. It allows augmented blood flow to the brain, thus diminishing brain fog and secondarily helping with energy levels and other symptoms. In my case, even though I do more than before, a lot more, I don't crash anymore. My energy levels have been up a little, but I wouldn't say drastically.

You have to be really patient if you try this med and go very slowly. I have warned people who wanted to try it, but it seems most of them go too fast and stop because of side effects. I started with 1/8th of a pill only and it took me teo months tomget to the full dose, increasing slowly and going less when necessary.

 

[*GG*]

I can mantain weight training if and only if I keep up on my supplements. Those give me the support to avoid crashing down. As always, listen to your body and rest when/if needed, start with anaerobic exercise, and keep aerobic exercise to a minimum. This can help reduce excessive cortisol release, along with promoting anabolism , as long as you have enough proper hormone functioning left.

The supplements "save" my mitochondria, and the rest is how I address the hormonal side. I am looking at trying some hormonal supplements myself, but that also has to be gently approached. If you feel yourself being much weaker coming back after a few days rest, then rest more. DO not keep pushing it unless you have supplemental help already occurring.

Interesting comment. My Dr has had me on Clomid and DHEA for years now, just added Prenenolone, due to this forum, I was looking at some of my recent blood values and noticed it. Sent them an email, and now am taking 25mg of Pregnenolone a day. Also, take 25 mgs of Clomid every other day, some times a 2 day break. And currently take 50mg of DHEA, have been up to 75 in the past.

Wonder if that is why I continue to gain strength (gym) even though I am over 45YO?

GG

 

[Dechi]

@*GG* I am glad your supplements are helping but gaining strenght after 45 y.o. is not something out of the ordinary. No matter what your age, if you train your muscles they will improve, up until you reach your plateau.

 

[*GG*]

@*GG* I am glad your supplements are helping but gaining strenght after 45 y.o. is not something out of the ordinary. No matter what your age, if you train your muscles they will improve, up until you reach your plateau.

I think it can be if your Testosterone etc are not high enough?

GG

 

[cman89]

Interesting comment. My Dr has had me on Clomid and DHEA for years now, just added Prenenolone, due to this forum, I was looking at some of my recent blood values and noticed it. Sent them an email, and now am taking 25mg of Pregnenolone a day. Also, take 25 mgs of Clomid every other day, some times a 2 day break. And currently take 50mg of DHEA, have been up to 75 in the past.

Wonder if that is why I continue to gain strength (gym) even though I am over 45YO?

GG

Very likely. The gains come from the hormones functioning properly. The mitochondria maintenance keeps everything functioning in state, but for actual anabolism, you NEED the hormones. Thats why I am looking at supplementing if possible. Im starting with pregenelone soon. I noticed also that my mito supps are great for nerve improvement and they help with endurance no doubt, but no growth really with those.

 

[cman89]

I think it can be if your Testosterone etc are not high enough?

GG

Testosterone, HGH, etc.. its all required for growth...

 

[*GG*]

Very likely. The gains come from the hormones functioning properly. The mitochondria maintenance keeps everything functioning in state, but for actual anabolism, you NEED the hormones. Thats why I am looking at supplementing if possible. Im starting with pregenelone soon. I noticed also that my mito supps are great for nerve improvement and they help with endurance no doubt, but no growth really with those.

Yeah, I take quit a few supplements as well. L carnitine fumarate and CoQ10 etc..

GG