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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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WE ARE NOT ALONE: POTS hits COVID patients, who get same response we do: dismissal, anti-d’s, anxiety drugs, and “…ALL IN YOUR HEAD…”

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,389
Whereas when you have mental health issues like say anxiety, panic attacks and depression, they can cause terrible misery, but at least you feel that you are still fundamentally sane, just suffering.

That is why I don't view anxiety, panic and depression as "mental health issues".

And the anhedonia we experience is the direct result of our body's are not experiencing the pleasure others body's do. My daughter loves to come back from a long walk feeling sore and tired. We come back with over 1400 messed up metabolites.

BUT REACTING TO PROTRACTEDLY PAINFUL, SHITTY, FRIGHTENING THINGS WITH ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION IS. NOT. MENTAL. ILLNESS.

Yes, I entirely agree with you.

And I wanted to comment on anhedonia. I understand the term can be applied to some "mental" disorders, and it's considered a symptom.

The anhedonia I experience often is due to being SICK chronically, with ME. And its part of the "sickness behavior" physiological reactions which in my opinion are not behaviors.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
My point is just that I think pathogens undoubtedly play a role, as do life circumstances. There are likely several other factors as well - maybe various genetics, physical injury, childhood experiences, and so forth.

I take a strong counter-view to the theory that serious mental illness is triggered by adverse life events, because such views are so prevalent amongst psychiatrists and mental health care professionals. If this view were not so prevalent (and largely erroneous in my view), I would not feel the need to try to counter it.

ME/CFS patients feel strongly that their illness is biological, and have fought against the idea it is psychological.

I feel exactly the same about psychiatric symptoms: I believe these are largely biologically caused, not psychological.


The argument against adverse life circumstances (psychological factors) playing a role in triggering mental health conditions is that no psychological therapies have ever cured serious mental health conditions such as bipolar, schizophrenia, autism, etc.

If psychological factors were able to push you into a state of mental ill health, then logically, psychological therapy (ie, talk therapy on the couch, art therapy, or what have you) should be able to reverse that ill health. But it does not.

Freud himself admitted that he never cured one patient with the psychoanalysis therapy he invented. But back in those days, treatments which target the physical brain were very limited, so talk therapy on the couch was about the only thing on offer.

Psychological therapies are effective in cases where depression is caused by life events though. Depression is one mental condition which can have biological causes, but can also be caused by life events (or a combination of both).


Mental health can be some of the worst suffering inflicted on human beings. The only comparable suffering is perhaps those who live in constant terrible pain (which includes some ME/CFS patients with severe body pains).

We need to figure out what causes mental ill health, we need to determine the root cause, because it's a torture no human being should go through.



Personally, even after my ME/CFS, I kind of loved professional stress and mentally thrived on it but physically suffered. I was still able to keep that up for over a decade until a further decline made it so even though I still thrived on the professional stress, the crashes became unbearable. Even now I love the 'idea' of professional stress, but I'm aware of the toll it will take (only took a couple decades to learn).

Presumably you do not have an anxiety disorder, as you were enjoying the stress and excitement, but then suffered the next few days due to PEM. But at the time, the excitement was fun.

However, if you had generalised anxiety disorder, even the the most minor stresses can feel overwhelmingly tense and very unpleasant.

The analogy I often give to explain the mental tension of generalised anxiety disorder is that it's like you are walking down the street a night, and suddenly you are pulled into a dark alleyway by a mugger, and gun is pointed to your head. At that very moment, you feel extreme anxiety and mental tension. Your brain automatically turns your anxiety circuits on to the maximum for survival reasons, because your life now depends on your next actions.

Generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) is like the anxiety you would feel with that gun pointed to your head, except that there is no gun. There are no external causes for your anxiety; the anxiety is there because of a dysfunction in your brain: your anxiety circuits have been mistakenly permanently switched on, due to some malfunction of the brain. Wirth GAD, even if you are in the most relaxing of circumstances, you still will feel as tense as you would be if a gun were pointed to your head.

Now take someone with generalised anxiety disorder, who is constantly in this heightened state of anxiety 24 hours a day, and then in addition, apply an external stressor in their life.

That external stressor is going to be interpreted as 10 times more stressful than it actually is, because the brain is already super hyped up with anxiety. In this way, people with anxiety can not longer handle ordinary life stressors.
 
Messages
13
At one stage I had this theory that my symptoms might be due to carbon monoxide poisoning. There was scant reason for me to think this, but that's what I told him. He took me seriously, but it was just a crazy idea of mine. Obviously, once you start coming out with these red herrings, a doctor is less likely to take your subsequent statements seriously.

Hi Hip,

Writing as a toxicologist who specializes in CO poisoning, I am here to tell you that was NOT "just a crazy idea" or a "red herring"!

There is actually a lot of evidence for the hypothesis that chronic CO poisoning is a common cause of ME/CFS and similar overlapping syndromes dating back to 19th-century neurasthenia.
Here is link to a review I wrote for a textbook on CO Toxicity back in 2000:
https://tinyurl.com/ADpapers2000a

Critically, CO accumulates in people (and our mammalian pets) from both

1. inhaled exogenous sources (CO is the most common source of unintentional toxic poisoning in the US according to the CDC)

and
2. internal endogenous pathways that make CO 24/7, especially HO-1 pathways which make many-fold more CO per hour in response to stressors of all kinds (including viral infections of all kinds, such as COVID)

Since doctors rarely ask about CO or test for it, I designed this poster for clinic exam rooms to increase the CO awareness of their patients.
www.tinyurl.com/2022

Anyone can screen themselves for CO poisoning just by counting how many of the CO-related conditions listed in the poster they currently have. All the CO survivors I have asked have over 10 and some over 25.
The hallmark of those suffering from a CO hangover when their CO levels are gradually falling is a type of sensory processing disorder I call Multi-Sensory Sensitivity or MUSES syndrome.

Unlike people with "pure" MCS who are only more sensitive to chemicals, people with MUSES are universal reactors. They are bothered by all kinds of sensory stimuli including odors, lights, sounds, touch, and hot weather.

I recommend that anyone with MUSES look into getting tested and treated for CO. There are lots of options available, including free DIY, reasonably priced OTC, and expensive RX (for do-it-yourself, over-the-counter, and by prescription)

I should acknowledge that NOT everyone with MUSES wants to get rid of it. People who identify as Highly Sensitive People (HSP) think of MUSES as a wonderful part of their life that they cherish.