Vitamin C issues....anyone?

[Wolfcub]

Every time I try vitamin C I crash.
Does anyone else have this issue?

Now in my case, I stopped taking vitamin C supplements months ago as they weren't doing any good, months ago I was generally worse anyway, and also I did find I might even feel slightly worse on them.

So here's the thing. I have been improving a LOT. Taking almost nothing except maintenance low dose multivits/minerals, plus low dose B complex, plus vitamin D 400IU daily.
Just eating healthy food for the most part.
Feeling better (with an odd "blip" here and there usually resolved in a few days) Nothing dramatic, just a deeply tired feeling and the old head twinges which have been there for almost a year. Liveable-with.

So I see this massive container of 1000mg vitamin C chewables which I bought way back when.
I think they are just going to be wasted or go off or something.
I am feeling really quite normal, so I decide what's the harm? It's winter after all, and I could eat a couple each day. They might do some good even.....

So I start eating 2000mg (2 tablets) a day. OK for 3 days. Then suddenly rollercoaster down again. No other reason I can think of except possibly the vitamin C.
My crashes consist of: a feeling like the first day you are coming down with flu -except no fever or cold type symptoms. Head twinges. Some brain slowness and inability to concentrate properly. Great weariness.
(Can't literally be coming down with flu as I have not been anywhere, or with any people.) This is just a "crash symptom" and I also got this after my CT scan. Same thing.

By the way, no GI problems from it or diarrhea, so I obviously haven't reached my tolerance threshold.

I've not reacted badly to vitamin C in my life before this past year.

Does anybody else get negative effects from it?

 

[Wayne]

Does anybody else get negative effects from it?

I've read that Vit. C is actually quite similar structurally to sugar. Which is why massive amounts can sometimes affect cancer. Cancer apparently loves sugar, and can mistake Vit. C for it. That's why Vit. C is often effective for treating cancer. -- I've had suspicions Vit. C disrupts my blood sugar levels. Is it possible some of your symptoms are blood sugar related?

 

[pamojja]

So I see this massive container of 1000mg vitamin C chewables which I bought way back when.

Chewables, tablet or vitamin C pills come with so many additions - binders and fillers - that you can't be sure it is the little ascorbic acid in it causing your adverse reaction. Only by also trying pure ascorbic acid powder you could be sure.

-- I've had suspicions Vit. C disrupts my blood sugar levels

Very, very unlikely. Though some cheap blood glucose meter do mistake ascorbate as glucose in blood, and vitamin C does share a same transporter with glucose for uptake. However, if one considers that usual blood glucose levels are about 100 mg/dl, while usual blood vitamin C levels are mostly below 1 mg/dl, it is a hundret time more likely glucose does disrupt vitamin blood levels, than the other way around.

 

[jesse's mom]

HI @Wolfcub I can't take vitamin C because it is too hard on my kidneys. I do feel worse instead of better when I take it. I stopped vitamin C for 4 months and my kidney numbers got 20 points better in my bloodwork! Chronic Kidney Disease has similar symptoms to CFS. If it makes you feel worse don't take it! We need you too much!

 

[Hufsamor]

Yes, that happens to me.
Vit c, d and b, same story.
(And a lot of other things...curcumin, fermented food of any kind, and so on and so on )
And I've tried quite a few different brands during the years, so I doubt it's the additions.

 

[Crux]

Vitamin C increases the production of nitric oxide (NO).
Too much nitric oxide can cause pain and fatigue.
I'll have those flu symptoms too, along with a lot of pain and more.

 

[Wishful]

I was sensitive to VitC in the first few years, though it doesn't seem to bother me now. It affects too many things to figure out why it has this effect on some PWME. Figure out what is a safe level for you to take. If your gums start bleeding, it's too low.

 

[Wolfcub]

Thank you so much for your replies.

@Wayne the blood sugar theory is interesting but,surely if it were a blood sugar issue (in my case anyway) I would also have problems with sugar in general? ... which I don't have.
When I am in a remission, I can and do eat sweet things in moderation and don't seem to get any blood sugar crashes or any problems or symptoms.
Surely it wouldn't be an on-and-off blood sugar problem, when I keep the same eating routines each day...or would it?

@pamojja Yes there are other ingredients in the tablets to make them palatable. That's worth me thinking about! I have never before been sensitive to things like that but you never know...

@jesse's mom Apparently my kidney values are healthy (re: blood work) I don't have any other symptoms of kidney problems....thank goodness. I hope yours stay improved!! We need you too!!

@Hufsamor Sorry you get it too. I am also sensitive to high dose B complex and never used to be. I haven't tried a high dose D3. I stay on 400IU which seems to suit me okay.

@Crux Maybe you have the answer. The nitric oxide? I haven't had worse pain than usual (stiff lower back plus aches which I've had for over 20 years) But definitely horrible fatigue suddenly. Typical "crash" scenario. Still feel "fluey" Will try flushing with water. See what happens.

 

[Wolfcub]

@Wishful I am okay on normal fruit/veg intake....so hopefully won't get to the gums bleeding stage! Yikes!

 

[Crux]

Don't worry, Wolfcub,

Bleeding gums could be infection, or cirrhosis.

 

[Judee]

Dr Myhill says vitamin c, "...is also toxic to all microbes including bacteria, yeast and viruses as well as being an important anti-oxidant..."

If she is correct, that makes me wonder if it isn't killing something in your gut and causing a bit of Herx.

 

[percyval577]

Vitamin C increases the production of nitric oxide (NO).
Too much nitric oxide can cause pain and fatigue.

Thank you for the interesting input.
Just googled eg d´Uscio et al 2003

... a significant increase in total NOS activity. However, this increase was mainly due to high activity of inducible NOS, whereas eNOS activity was reduced.

Interesting and a small riddle to me:
I figured out by many influences that my NO in the brain must be much to high,
but I did get good effects from vitC. I adressed and stil adress it to the conversion
of dopamine (which should be reuptake-inhibited, and seems in fact to have gotten too low over the years)
to norepinephren (which also should be too low).
So my theory was and is, that the conversion helps (possibly for different reasons).
Maybe also some more dopamine would be synthesized.

However, I would think from my experiences that an effect of vitC in the brain on NO shouldn´t be very pronounced.

PS:
I have read, primates can´t synthesize vitC because the last step of the pathway doesn´t function anymore.
But naturally some animals - including gorillas - eat a huge amount of vitC.
So I guess that a detrimental effect normally - well we are not very normal - won´t take place.
(I wouln´t think that a serious damage is possible.)

 

[Crux]

@percyval577 ,

Since vitamin C is essential, I'm not at all arguing against the use of it.
Since it increases the production of nitric oxide (NO), that may be one way it is antimicrobial.

Vitamin C has many crucial functions, I certainly can't deny that.

I'm trying to find out why so many of us have negative side effects when taking a supplement that should be beneficial. Of course, any antioxidant can become pro-oxidant if too much is taken.

Some Patients with ME/CFS have been shown to have elevated NO and Peroxynitrite. I'm seeing a pattern where folks are having similar side effects to anything that increases NO.

Most healthy people, and animals, don't have such strong reactions to NO. It has many benefits. To me, this is more of an indication that there is something very wrong with us.

We are very ill, we know.

 

[percyval577]

@percyval577I'm trying to find out why so many of us have negative side effects when taking a supplement that should be beneficial. ...

The body is of course a mess, and if we influence things that might not be essential for the illness but within the illness of importance for the sufferer´s body, it might differ for difficult reasons.
I completly agree with you though that this is interesting, and maybe something will turn out, hopefully. Negative effects from vitC I noticed recently when I took vitC and had some intake of chromium (which is very few known about).

Some Patients with ME/CFS have been shown to have elevated NO and Peroxynitrite. I'm seeing a pattern where folks are having similar side effects to anything that increases NO.

In my case I am convinced. There is this iNOS pathway in the microglia (maybe also in the macrophages which are related to the microglia in heritage): Arginine+Manganese+LPS-->NO. So my discovery, finally, was that my illness comes from a dysregulataion of this pathway, because (1) my illness diminishes slowly while I practise a low manganese diet, and (2) my impacts were ticks (->borrelia->Manganese) and EBV (->Arginine), and (3) other influences do point to NO additionally (on neurotransmitters especially, cytokines a bit).

Well there is also a cNOS pathway in the microglia, I don´t know much about it currently, but it should well be part of a homeostasis with the nNOS. So maybe other influences on microglia can also lead to too much NO - or even to too less NO (?!), but with comparable consequencies.

To me it seems that the ability to act is hindered by a chaos of synaptical connections, and here the NO-system is guessed to account for the synaptical plasticity. So even a direct influence on the nNOS is thinkable as a cause of the illness.

Most healthy people, and animals, don't have such strong reactions to NO. It has many benefits. To me, this is more of an indication that there is something very wrong with us.

One thing which is outstanding in primates is the pyramidal system. Other mammals have it too, but to a less degree. Nucleus caudatus and thalamus are (in two directions at least in case of the thalamus) connected to the cortex, and I would guess, this includs the more pronounced pyramidal system which ends there. Bumping to the top of qeue I will say, I just get quite a push from taurine (high in basal ganglia in generel and in thalamus) in combination with gaba (high there too, but difficult to judge at, in most areas it should well be too low under high NO!?). So I am finishing with this geometrical consideration [].

Many regards

 

[Crux]

@percyval577 ,

I'm going to take this discussion over to your thread, https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/countering-nitric-oxide.60971/

I'll just say that even most (?) ME patients aren't going to react to vitamin C or other NO inducing foods or supps., But, if they do, then excess NO may be an issue.

 

[Mick]

I was going to ask the same question because I badly need an answer but as I can see... it's already here. And there is no good answer, so at least let me share what I know.

It is a very annoying problem as vitamin C is an additive in many supplements and foods (as an antioxidant or preservative) - it's cheap and good so every manufacturer adds it to their product eg. a composite supplement.

The cheapest zinc chelate on the (local) market? Let's add vitamins ACE to it. Just minute quantities. I don't have a problem with A and E but vitamin C even in such a small quantity (like 50 mg every day) is a problem... and it made me order a much more expensive option (though probably of a much better quality but you have to be as cost-effective as possible when you have CFS).

A multivitamin? Forget it.

I, of course, tried vitamin C in every possible aspect and combination - as a natural vitamin C (in oranges as well as in tablets - acerola). To account for the possibility that I may be sensitive to something in the tablet - like fillers or residues from production (ie. fermentation?) or whatever. Needless to say that vitamin C in every form and in every quantity, sooner or later, caused the symptoms to appear. Lower doses - it took a few days. A large dose - one day was enough.

The symptoms? Flu-like symptoms with joint pain.
So, it's another trigger of joint pain for me. It's tough...

The mechanism? I assume that vitamin C boosts the immune system, makes it hyperactive/hyperREactive, especially that I have gut dysbiosis so there are irritants (no matter if it's candida or bad bacteria). So, it's like an allergic reaction or rather anaphylactic shock - only a small quantity of irritant is required to cause the shock and it all happens very fast except for the fact that vit. C is not an irritant but rather an enabler.

And AFAIR there are papers that say that NK cells are more aggresive when supplied with vitamin C.

Well, vit. C may also cause candida or a bacteria to grow faster but is it even possible? But again - it's not because it's feed for bacteria but rather an enabler or a required co-factor that allows it to grow much faster.
Vit. C may also irritate mucous membranes in the gut and thus cause the inflammation that spreads (to joints). But at such low doses? At such a low concentration (like in fruit, veggies)? It's unlikely.

I'm basically dismissing all other theories (at least in my case) because they don't fit the severity of symptoms, the low dose required and the speed of the onset of symptoms (like 2 hours). And for example if NO was involved then other supplements would cause similar problems - and nothing like that happens with other foods.

Figure out what is a safe level for you to take. If your gums start bleeding, it's too low.

You basically don't need to take a vit. C supplement because it's present everywhere, even in cooked potatoes... any fruit will usually provide you with enough for the day.
What I'm trying to say is that I avoid vit. C at any price. This is because sooner or later I will exceed the safe threshold because I will eat food that has a lot of vit. C in it.

I am able to consume 300 g of raw cabbage (as a ready-to-eat salad) in one sitting and this gives me about 100 mgs of vit. C (as nutrition data says). That's a lot for me. No wonder that for me this cabbage salad is allowed only once a week. Or even less frequently.

But I wish I could use vit. C's power to my advantage. That would be just great. Collagen boost and a faster recovery from injuries (cuts) come to my mind...

 

[Mick]

PS.

I stopped taking vitamin C supplements months ago as they weren't doing any good

To be strict: vitamin was doing all the good you can get from it but not in the immune system department. To make it more general: the body is divided into systems, into cells, and even the cell is divided into compartments. And even within this tiny cell in one compartment something may cause trouble and in the other it may be useful/necessary.
So actually this is the concept of a side effect: how to minimize the troubles in this one compartment and get the benefit of it in the other compartments.

When it comes to vitamin C I was trying very hard to make it work but to no avail. I took ALA which recovers vitamin C - the same inflammation ensued (the same as in I feel it in the same places, it has the same intensity, it feels the same, etc.). So all I could do is to start taking collagen and other minerals in place of vitamin C. But it didn't work that well...

I found a paper in which they claim that vitamin C may exacerbate arthritis.
This is it:
Ascorbic acid increases the severity of spontaneous knee osteoarthritis in a guinea pig model.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15188359

I think this time it's all I know about vitamin C's bad side. If anyone has an idea how to make it work then tell us. Maybe IV ascorbic acid would work, when stomach (ie. one of the body compartments in which the immune system tends to be hyperactive) is bypassed? Then... maybe sublingually?
But then again I don't expect miracles even from sublingual application because I do ingest some vitamin C with veggies. And I eat a lot of veggies.

 

[linusbert]

ideas you might want to investigate:

1. synthetic ascorbic acid is said to cause 'real' vitamin c deficiency and cannot even cure scorbut - some organic vitamin c advocates say. i saw this in a dr. Ekberg or dr. Berg video.
never seen any research.

2. ascorbic acid is known to cause or exacerbate calcium deficiency in high dosages. maybe you are low on calcium / vitamin d. calcium is required to contain inflammation.

3. copper deficiency / iron overload

i personally do not tolerate anything containing citrus / lemon. acerola seams to be fine.
but lemon c extracts make me feel worse.

 

[pamojja]

1. synthetic ascorbic acid is said to cause 'real' vitamin c deficiency and cannot even cure scorbut - some organic vitamin c advocates say. i saw this in a dr. Ekberg or dr. Berg video.
never seen any research.

There is plenty research that the synthetic ascorbate molecule is the same as the one endegeniously produced in mamals, who don't have the L-gulonolactone oxidase gene mutation. And of course, plenty of research that synthetic does cure scurvy.

2. ascorbic acid is known to cause or exacerbate calcium deficiency in high dosages. maybe you are low on calcium / vitamin d. calcium is required to contain inflammation.

In my case always had deficient calcium serum levels. Only very high Vitamin D3 braught my calcium levels into normal range. Despite taking in average 26 g/of pure ascorbic acid every day since 14 years.

3. copper deficiency / iron overload

Despite taking in average 26 g/d of pure ascorbic acid since 14 years, I could still not correct the opposite in such a long time: copper overload and iron deviciency (partially improved with betaine-hcl.[/QUOTE]

personally do not tolerate anything containing citrus / lemon. acerola seams to be fine.
but lemon c extracts make me feel worse.

We are all different with different deficiencies and sensitivities. But above 3 points are such general misconceptions about vitamin C, they don't really explain anything or could bring any relieve.

 

[linusbert]

There is plenty research that the synthetic ascorbate molecule is the same as the one endegeniously produced in mamals, who don't have the L-gulonolactone oxidase gene mutation. And of course, plenty of research that synthetic does cure scurvy.

they didnt say ascorbic acid wasnt the same chemical molecule.
they say vitamin C in nature is a functional complex containing multiple things, acorbic acid being just one of them. also containing tyrosinase which is copper based. and flavonoids and many other things.
by supplementing only ascorbic acid they body needs to make up for the other parts to assure its natural "function". therefore its using up body own resources like copper.
so natural copper brings along some of its co factors where as only ascorbic acid does not.
thats their argument. i am just sharing my research.