Unfolded Protein Response and A Possible Treatment for CFS

mariovitali

Senior Member
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1,214
I use snptips on Firefox, which lights up those rs numbers when I have them, and I can then mouse over them for my specifics. I didn't do all of them because my working memory is non-existent, I have to keep scrolling back and forth to get results and record them. :rolleyes:


Hmm yes i hear you, i don't trust SNPtips because i saw that it does not flip letters as it should...
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
If someone is not producing enough sulfates all they need is molybdenum to up regulate their SUOX enzyme.

Unfortunately, when people with ME take molybdenum to deal with the SUOX issue, many feel much, much worse.
 

Undisclosed

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10,157
This thread has been closed as it contains multiple rule breaches that need to be removed. It will be reopened after the rule breaches have been removed.

Thank you.
 
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Undisclosed

Senior Member
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10,157
Please note, any rule breaches have been removed as well as any of the comments quoting the text of any rule breaches.

Just to note, this thread appears to have many instances of members offering medical advice -- diagnosing members, specific prescriptions. Please avoid dispensing medical advice.

Here is our 'No Medical Advice' rule:
Members may offer their opinion or make suggestions but they may not tell members what they must or should do.

One of the main purposes of the Phoenix Rising forums is to serve as a place where patients can receive support from other patients who struggle with similar problems and where we can all learn about each others experiences. Many members offer information related to symptoms, medication, supplements and treatments, and such information is warmly welcomed. Members are encouraged to post about their personal experiences, post information regarding their own medical choices, and post opinions about how particular treatments and protocols have worked for them.

However, there is a difference between telling someone that their symptoms may be suggestive of a particular medical condition and suggesting that trying a treatment may be helpful, as opposed to telling somebody that they definitely have a specific health problem and they should take a specific treatment.

We define 'medical advice' as diagnosing and prescribing for another individual member. It is not appropriate, on these forums, to diagnose another member's medical condition or to urge other members into particular actions (or inactions) regarding their medical treatments. Nor is it appropriate to urge members to undertake specific protocols or to take specific amounts of medications or supplements. These are issues that should be discussed with a health care professional.

Using wording like 'in my opinion', 'in my experience', 'this has worked for me' or 'this protocol might be worth trying' is all perfectly acceptable when referring to medical issues. Insisting that a member has a specific diagnosis, must utilize a specific treatment or protocol, or must take a specific amount of a supplement or medication, is all considered to be medical advice and is not permitted on these forums.


There were quite a few personal attacks on this thread -- now removed.

When posting about scientific matters, it's good to be open to criticism. You can agree or disagree with a hypothesis and have a conversation about that. If you think a member has gone over the line and breached the rules, report them.


Rule of thumb -- avoid personally attacking a member -- address the content of a post rather than addressing their personal attributes. Eg., "You are wrong because there is no proof that... see here, here and here." Rather than "You are wrong because you don't know anything about science".

It's personal to discuss another member in terms of what you think their 'attitude' is, that you think they don't understand science, etc etc.

Every member here has a unique point of view, contributes to the forums according to their own knowledge and interests, and has a right to post what they think if they stay within the rules. For those who don't agree with you, take it on board, think about why, and maybe it might add to your own knowledge. In the end, most people take on board what makes sense to them. We can learn from each other at most. Accept all opinions as being appropriate even if you don't agree with them.

If you have any questions regarding any removed/edited on this thread, please contact me via Conversation.

Thank you.

The thread is now open again.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
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1,214
A possibility on why we feel better with Choline :


Cholangiocytes are the epithelial cells of the bile duct.[1] They are cuboidal epithelium in the small interlobular bile ducts, but become columnar and mucus secreting in larger bile ducts approaching the porta hepatis and the extrahepatic ducts.

In the healthy liver, cholangiocytes contribute to bile secretion via net release of bicarbonate and water. Several hormones and locally acting mediators are known to contribute to cholangiocyte fluid/electrolyte secretion. These include secretin, acetylcholine, ATP, andbombesin.

Cholangiocytes act through bile-acid independent bile flow, which is driven by the active transport of electrolytes. In contrast, hepatocytes secrete bile through bile-acid dependent bile flow, which is coupled to canalicular secretion of bile acids via ATP-driven transporters. This results in passive transcellular and paracellular secretion of fluid and electrolytes through an osmotic effect.

Importantly, cholangiocytes are the target of disease in a variety of conditions often known as "cholangiopathies". These diseases include primary biliary cirrhosis, primary sclerosing cholangitis, AIDS cholangiopathy, disappearing bile duct syndromes, Alagille's syndrome,cystic fibrosis, and biliary atresia. As a group, cholangiopathies account for approximately 18% of adult liver transplantations and the majority of pediatric liver transplantations.

Active scientific investigation of cholangiocytes focuses on such diverse processes as mechanisms of fluid/electrolyte secretion, regulation of cholangiocyte proliferation, roles of cholangiocytes in the pathogenesis of liver fibrosis and cirrhosis, and cholangiocyte apoptosis. Specific investigation of individual cholangiopathies is also pursued actively.[1]
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,191
@whodathunkit how do you know that you have iron overload in your liver? I have suggested in talking with @mariovitali that I believe this is what starts this whole awful dysfunction in the liver.


I am leaning towards, for the majority of people with ME, excess H2O2 is the problem.

Local and systemic inflammatory conditions are characterized by the intracellular deposition of excess iron, which may promote tissue damage via Fenton chemistry. Because the Fenton reactant H2O2 is continuously released by inflammatory cells, a tight regulation of iron homeostasis is required. Here, we show that exposure of cultured cells to sustained low levels of H2O2 that mimic its release by inflammatory cells leads to upregulation of transferrin receptor 1 (TfR1), the major iron uptake protein.
Read more here.
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
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3,191
This one relates to Parkinson's and has the added info that the H2O2 is by MAO.

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/10/4890.full.pdf

Parkinson disease: A new link between monoamine oxidase and mitochondrial electron flow


ABSTRACT Two factors that contribute to the progression of Parkinson disease are a brain defect in mitochondrial respiration and the generation of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) by monoamine oxidase (MAO). Here we show that the two are linked.
 

roller

wiggle jiggle
Messages
775
but H2O2 is a defense mechanism?
particularly to fight pathogens.

so perhaps its not the bad thing in the first place.

imo, whatever you look at ... it may be interesting... but it doesnt help - the cause has to be found.

i also think, there is no way to conclude anything for chronic diseases.
you can perhaps say, "in measles patients showing rash there is ... "
but in chronic diseases the body reacts to the 'stress', perhaps even after years, and regulates up there, down here... to improve things or prevent damage...
and this may be highly dependend on genetics - so bottomline, disease development is a highly individual thing? e.g. the H2O2 could be downregulated after years ?
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,191
Peroxiredoxin IV protects cells from oxidative stress by removing H2O2produced during disulphide formation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908052/

One of the predicted causes of cell stress under these conditions is the build-up of reactive oxygen species (ROS) formed during disulphide formation or as a consequence of the unfolded protein response (UPR)
 

Flo

Messages
80
but H2O2 is a defense mechanism?
particularly to fight pathogens.

so perhaps its not the bad thing in the first place.

imo, whatever you look at ... it may be interesting... but it doesnt help - the cause has to be found.

i also think, there is no way to conclude anything for chronic diseases.
you can perhaps say, "in measles patients showing rash there is ... "
but in chronic diseases the body reacts to the 'stress', perhaps even after years, and regulates up there, down here... to improve things or prevent damage...
and this may be highly dependend on genetics - so bottomline, disease development is a highly individual thing? e.g. the H2O2 could be downregulated after years ?

This is true only if the source of H2O2 is from the phagocytes. H2O2 produced outside the phagocyte will slow immune activity.
 

roller

wiggle jiggle
Messages
775
ok, then there is no much to do about h2o2 outside phagocytes, it seems.
and one can only hope that production inside phagocytes is working properly.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Looking things from a "Bile Acids" POV - FYI @Bdeep86 :

These roles will be described in the following pages andfollowing chapters. BAs are stored in the gallbladder under extremely high concentration (4 300mM), achieved by a constant removal of water and electrolytes. About 5% of these bile acids go to the colon for excretion in the faeces, and since cholesterol is a precursor of BA, this is the only time cholesterol is excreted from the body (as bile). Also present in bile are:

(1) Bilirubin and other pigments resulting from haem catabolism,
(2) Heavy metals such as copper or iron, in excess of bodily needs, and
(3) Lipophilic steroids and drug metabolites that would be insoluble in the urine.


and

Physiological Roles of CYP7B1

Bile Salt Synthesis—A major metabolic fate of cholesterol is conversion into conjugated bile salts in liver (2). Once synthesized, bile salts act in the intestine to facilitate solubilization of hydrophobic nutrients from the diet, including fat- soluble vitamins and cholesterol. In liver, bile salts stimulate bile flow and the excretion of metabolites such as porphyrins that arise from the breakdown of heme.

and


For a long time, bile acids were considered solely as steroidal detergents and emulsifying agents. But now their roles as regulatory/signaling molecules have been recognized. They are ligands for the orphan nuclear receptors FXR and PXR. Through activating FXR, bile acids regulate many genes in the liver and intestine, which modulate the biosynthesis and metabolism of bile acids and lipoproteins and determine the composition of the intestinal flora and fuana [3, 7, 8, 17, 18]. Recently, δ-aminolevulinate synthase, the rate limiting enzyme of porphyrin-heme synthesis, has also been identified as a gene regulated by FXR, indicating a role of bile acids and their precursors in regulating hepatic heme biosynthesis

The way that i see it, incorrect Bile Acid circulation exposes an individual's oxidative stress issues! (among other issues).

So for example, someone who has lots of NDUFS7 SNPs may be in more trouble than others who don't (my Hypothesis)

Bile Acids have so many pathways and so many things can go wrong. Unfortunately we need an expert here. We need to take special tests that show the exact metabolites of BAs. There are many genes along the pathway and so many possibilities.

I also wanted to say that my confidence that Bile Acids / FXR is the primary culprit increased even more. Note that BAs which are not efficiently metabolised are toxic, create Oxidative Stress, Apoptosis and Liver Disease.
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,191
@mariovitali , this is good! Thank you

Also present in bile are:
(1) Bilirubin and other pigments resulting from haem catabolism,
(2) Heavy metals such as copper or iron, in excess of bodily needs, and
(3) Lipophilic steroids and drug metabolites that would be insoluble in the urine.

In liver, bile salts stimulate bile flow and the excretion of metabolites such as porphyrins that arise from the breakdown of heme.

How are bile acids metabolized?
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,191
Lost of metabolic processes do. Serotonin metabolism by the MAOA enzyme is one.
http://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P21397

And some use H2O2, like Thyroid Peroxidase
http://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P07202

I just reread the first link and oh my, just what I have been looking for but couldn't find. I was trying to figure out if the stress hormones were broken down to H2O2, and yes, norepinephrine and epinephrine. Well, they are listed as being catalyzed by MAOA but I'm not sure if H2O2 is a byproduct. I am still trying to find out how cortisol is metabolized, too, and if that results in H2O2 production, if anyone knows that.
"
Catalyzes the oxidative deamination of biogenic and xenobiotic amines and has important functions in the metabolism of neuroactive and vasoactive amines in the central nervous system and peripheral tissues. MAOA preferentially oxidizes biogenic amines such as 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT), norepinephrine and epinephrine."
 
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mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@mariovitali what do you feel is going on with the FXR receptor? Do you feel its being over activated?

I think it is not that simple because we are all different. All i am trying to do with this Thread is to have an expert take a good look at this Hypothesis, research it and either accept it or reject it.

So Regarding FXR i really don't know..

I will have more results very soon to share.
 
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