Turmeric/Curcumin for ME/CFS?

[Learner1]

However, I did happen upon the following review which I found interesting.

I haven't had a chance to read this thoroughly, but it sounds like this is in line what other posts are saying?

Comments?​

These people were looking at the potential to neatly make curcumin into a drug. What they found, as with other natural substances, is that curcumin is a very complex substance with complex interactions with human biochemistry and very difficult to isolate a particular component of curcumin and test its effects so that they can make a drug out of it, but as with other natural substances, unraveling the complexity with out-of-the-box thinking may help future scientists be able to make it into a drug.

From the conclusion:

we do not rule out the possibility that an extract of crude turmeric might have beneficial effects on human health.
The large RC of NP extracts, and even of refined NP preparations, makes the identification of the active constituents and
evaluation of their efficacy in humans very
difficult.

Considering the overwhelming evidence showing the weakness of isolated curcumin (almost always a mixture of curcuminoids) as a viable therapeutic, consideration of holistic approaches that take into account the chemical and PD/PK complexity of turmeric and its broad TxM/nutritional foundation appears to be superior directions for future research in the turmeric domain.

While the concepts of static and dynamic RC apply equally to synthetically prepared compounds, the development of leads sourced from metabolomic (natural) sources is intrinsically more prone to the impact of purity (and unknown impurities).

In some ways, the over-simplification of this complexity has led to complicatedness that makes it difficult to interpret results of curcumin-based studies.

In addition, there is increasing evidence that TxM agents cannot be adequately described with reductionist pharmacology models but require consideration of polypharmacology and synergy.

The recent recognition of IMPS4 adds to the uniqueness of natural products by identifying panacea-type substances that establish a new dimension of biological signatures generated by bioactive molecules.

Curcumin is not the only potential IMP that has received much attention by the scientific community as a drug lead. Development projects with numerous other prominent plant
natural products (e.g., polyphenolics) have experienced similar drawbacks despite major efforts.

As shown here for curcumin, the essential medicinal chemistry of natural products that were developed into drugs successfully, and as almost unaltered structures (e.g., artemisinin, camptothecin, taxol, ivermectin, etc.), differs significantly from those of potential IMPS.

This orthogonal perspective on the druggability of NPs is further supported by the metabolic feedback hypothesis, which states that bioactivity, especially of many food-borne phytochemicals, can act via weak negative biological feedback mechanisms, escaping in vitro detection and blurring our
understanding of mechanisms of action.

Collectively, recognition of these factors may remove complicatedness from ongoing research while inspiring the development of out-of-the-box approaches to unraveling the complexity and potential health benefits of turmeric and other NPs.

 

[perchance dreamer]

And my stage 3 cancer hasn't returned.

That's wonderful, @Learner! The Longvida form helps my short-term memory, and the Meriva form helps my joint pain, so I'm a big turmeric fan.

 

[cigana]

Curcumin improved my sleep significantly, in the form of "Enhansa" 600mg.
I tried many other brands, but only Enhansa worked.

 

[RUkiddingME]

Turmeric/Curcumin for ME/CFS?

One of our members on MEA Facebook has asked about the use of turmeric/curcumin for ME/CFS

More info below

If anyone on PR is using turmeric/curcumin, or has been using it, feedback would be welcome

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, MEA
Jan 29th 2017

MEA Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/ME-Association-171411469583186/

Info on Turmeric/Curcumin:

Turmeric is a spice that is often used in Asian cooking. The root of the plant it comes from contains a chemical called curcumin, which can be used to make a medicine.

This is then sold in capsule form and is widely available from health shops and some pharmacies

We receive occasional feedback from people with ME/CFS on the therapeutic use of turmeric/curcumin

As with almost all anecdotal reports there is a mixed response - some people have reported that turmeric/curcumin can help with some of their ME/CFS symptoms whereas others find no benefit. A few people report side-effects

As there have not been any clinical trials to assess the safety and efficacy of turmeric/curcumin in ME/CFS we really don't know if it could be of genuine benefit here

There is, however, some interesting research that has examined the therapeutic properties of curcumin and it appears to have genuine anti-inflammatory effects

So turmeric/curcumin may be of benefit in anti-inflammatory conditions like arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease and possibly even ME/CFS - possibly by its effect on pro-inflammatory cytokines (immune system chemicals that cause and maintain inflammation)

Comprehensive research evidence review:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535097/

Turmeric/curcumin is also capable of enhancing serotonin levels in the brain ( a 'feel good' chemical transmitter) and affecting the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis (which is involved in ME/CFS) where it increases the level of the hormone cortisol

Research paper abstract relating to action on the HPA and raising levels of the hormone cortisol:
http://www.bmijournal.org/index.php/bmi/article/view/79

As with any substance that has therapeutic actions, turmeric/curcumin can have side effects, and there are situations where it is best avoided. These need to be considered before using it

Reliable information on side-effects and cautions:
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-662-turmeric.aspx?activeingredientid=662

It would be interesting to hear from anyone with ME/CFS who is using, or has used, turmeric/curcumin...

Turmeric/Curcumin for ME/CFS?

One of our members on MEA Facebook has asked about the use of turmeric/curcumin for ME/CFS

More info below

If anyone on PR is using turmeric/curcumin, or has been using it, feedback would be welcome

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, MEA
Jan 29th 2017

MEA Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/ME-Association-171411469583186/

Info on Turmeric/Curcumin:

Turmeric is a spice that is often used in Asian cooking. The root of the plant it comes from contains a chemical called curcumin, which can be used to make a medicine.

This is then sold in capsule form and is widely available from health shops and some pharmacies

We receive occasional feedback from people with ME/CFS on the therapeutic use of turmeric/curcumin

As with almost all anecdotal reports there is a mixed response - some people have reported that turmeric/curcumin can help with some of their ME/CFS symptoms whereas others find no benefit. A few people report side-effects

As there have not been any clinical trials to assess the safety and efficacy of turmeric/curcumin in ME/CFS we really don't know if it could be of genuine benefit here

There is, however, some interesting research that has examined the therapeutic properties of curcumin and it appears to have genuine anti-inflammatory effects

So turmeric/curcumin may be of benefit in anti-inflammatory conditions like arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease and possibly even ME/CFS - possibly by its effect on pro-inflammatory cytokines (immune system chemicals that cause and maintain inflammation)

Comprehensive research evidence review:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535097/

Turmeric/curcumin is also capable of enhancing serotonin levels in the brain ( a 'feel good' chemical transmitter) and affecting the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis (which is involved in ME/CFS) where it increases the level of the hormone cortisol

Research paper abstract relating to action on the HPA and raising levels of the hormone cortisol:
http://www.bmijournal.org/index.php/bmi/article/view/79

As with any substance that has therapeutic actions, turmeric/curcumin can have side effects, and there are situations where it is best avoided. These need to be considered before using it

Reliable information on side-effects and cautions:
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-662-turmeric.aspx?activeingredientid=662

It would be interesting to hear from anyone with ME/CFS who is using, or has used, turmeric/curcumin...

I have been taking curcumin for years but powder form. The past five months i switched to a gel form of curcumin and after the first three months, the lower back pain I had for years with any movement was gone! Countless chiropractic adjustments and acupuncture never touched the pain. I use the brand Smarter Nutrition. Maybe a coincidence but my fatigue has been less also. I plan to use this brand for as long as they keep making it!

 

[E.man]

Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to experiment on ourselves.

 

[Learner1]

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/super-herb-ten-reasons-use-curcumin

 

[gbells]

I found the long vida form of turmeric to be good against inflammatory pain. Disadvantages are cost and needing to dose it every four hours because of a short half life. Dr. Mercola's website has a time release form that is probably better.

 

[Learner1]

Having tried all the "best" products on the market, I've found Core Plus micellized curcumin from nurish.me and Designs for Health Curcum-Avail to be the most potent, but I am also looking for its Phase II detox and mast cell stabilizing capabilities, not just antinflammatory properties.

 

[tiredowl]

I want to try Curcumin again since it has so many benefits, but I am a bit worried about some things.

First off, curcumin can increase serotonin if I am correct... I think what caused my relapse ( had a remission for a few months.) was being put on a antidepressant, which unfortunately only gave a false sense of energy.

Is this somhow connected to the Cortene trial theory? How does curcumin affect CRH receptors? I am really curious about the role of serotonin and other neurotransmiters in this disorder.
I'm a bit worried that curcumin will do further damage since it messes with serotonin and neurotransmitters.. Anyone know anything about this?

 

[Learner1]

I have taken high doses (3-8g per day) of curcumin for 5 years, and have had IV curcumin. My serotonin was recently measured and it is low normal.

From what I have read, the majority of serotonin is made in your gut, so if you have serotonin issues, looking toeard your microbiome composition may be helpful.

My personal experience has been that neurotransmitters are not as important as you might think in dictaring mood. My neurotransmitters are all fairly low, yet my mood is solid and I'm happy. More important are B vitamins - under or overmethylation, and zinc/copper balance.

The problem with most psychiatric meds is that they deplete nutrients, particularly folate. If you Google "nutrient deficiencies" and the drug you were on, it might be a clue as to what impacted you. "The New Optimum Nutrition for the Brain" by Patrick Holford is a good read.

Curcumin has many properties - it is a COX-2 inhibitor, broad spectrum Phase II detoxer, anti-cancer agent, and anti-inflammatory.

I also found this which may give you some insight:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3699679/

 

[tiredowl]

I have taken high doses (3-8g per day) of curcumin for 5 years, and have had IV curcumin. My serotonin was recently measured and it is low normal.

From what I have read, the majority of serotonin is made in your gut, so if you have serotonin issues, looking toeard your microbiome composition may be helpful.

My personal experience has been that neurotransmitters are not as important as you might think in dictaring mood. My neurotransmitters are all fairly low, yet my mood is solid and I'm happy. More important are B vitamins - under or overmethylation, and zinc/copper balance.

The problem with most psychiatric meds is that they deplete nutrients, particularly folate. If you Google "nutrient deficiencies" and the drug you were on, it might be a clue as to what impacted you. "The New Optimum Nutrition for the Brain" by Patrick Holford is a good read.

Curcumin has many properties - it is a COX-2 inhibitor, broad spectrum Phase II detoxer, anti-cancer agent, and anti-inflammatory.

I also found this which may give you some insight:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3699679/

May I ask why you got IV curcumin? Is it better than just taking it in oral form?
Interesting that it was low after taking curcumin.

Yeah, I have been thinking about getting a 5HIAA test done in the future just to be sure my serotonin isn't high or something like that..

I guess there is a lot of focus on neurotransmitters in mood/brain health, but I know that low dopamine causes severe motivation issues and it has a key role in Parkinson disease for example. The idea that ME/CFS can be caused by a metabolic switch in the brain is interesting though.
That's great you are solid and happy even if it's low!

Oh I didn't know it depleted folate, that makes sense since my folate has been low in the past and I have to eat liver to keep it normal. Thank you, I will check it out when I have more energy to read long scientific journals haha.

Indeed, curcumin seems to be able to do a bit of everything, which is quite unusual for something that can be found in a supplement I think!

 

[Learner1]

May I ask why you got IV curcumin? Is it better than just taking it in oral form?

Yes, IV was far superior to oral. 8g of Meriva did not touch what 200mg of IV did for me when I took it for IVIG side effects.

It came from a compounding pharmacy. Unfortunately, I do not know of a current US source, though it is available in Canada. A woman allergic to everything was given it by a doctor unprepared for an anaphylactic patient, and it caused the product to be taken from the market. Though, from the writeup of the investigation I saw, it was just an allergic reaction. I had the very same product with only good results on multiple occasions.

Interesting that it was low after taking curcumin.

Yeah, I have been thinking about getting a 5HIAA test done in the future just to be sure my serotonin isn't high or something like that..

I guess there is a lot of focus on neurotransmitters in mood/brain health, but I know that low dopamine causes severe motivation issues and it has a key role in Parkinson disease for example. The idea that ME/CFS can be caused by a metabolic switch in the brain is interesting though.
That's great you are solid and happy even if it's low!

Just met with my neurologist today, who thinks that my neurotransmitters are low due to amino acid depletion - I seem to burn aminos as Fluge and Mella found.

Oh I didn't know it depleted folate, that makes sense since my folate has been low in the past and I have to eat liver to keep it normal. Thank you, I will check it out when I have more energy to read long scientific journals haha.

A serving of liver supplies 54% of the DV of folate, IF your microbiome metabolizes it properly, and IF you don't have genes or environmental factors increasing your need for folate, and IF you aren't on some folate-depleting drug. More is not better, but too much or too little folate can promote all sorts of bad things, so having ther right folate (and not folic acid) intake for you is best. You very well may need more - some folks need up to 15mg a day, some 5mg, some 2, and some only need the 400mcg DV to get by.

Indeed, curcumin seems to be able to do a bit of everything, which is quite unusual for something that can be found in a supplement I think!

As long as you're not allergic to it, and understand what it may be doing for you, it is a fantastic supplement.

 

[tiredowl]

Yeah I would imagine absorbtion being much higher with IV, but that is scary it can cause anaphylaxis, she must have been very unlucky!

Do you consume protein powder to help replenish the amino acids? I'm not sure what my status is when it comes to amino acid, never tested them... it's probably really expensive to test for as well. Although I remember an article about a woman who 'cured' (using that word lightly since she had only been well for a few months after) after consuming high amounts of protein powder and basically consuming a lot of calories. She most likely had some type of malabsortion and that caused her body to heal again, maybe being able to fight off the virus or whatever caused her illness.

I don't know, never tested my MTHFR but I haven't noticed any bad effects from eating liver, it also seems to contain some interesting anti-fatigue compound, and it has a lot of protein so that's good.

Yes, IV was far superior to oral. 8g of Meriva did not touch what 200mg of IV did for me when I took it for IVIG side effects.

It came from a compounding pharmacy. Unfortunately, I do not know of a current US source, though it is available in Canada. A woman allergic to everything was given it by a doctor unprepared for an anaphylactic patient, and it caused the product to be taken from the market. Though, from the writeup of the investigation I saw, it was just an allergic reaction. I had the very same product with only good results on multiple occasions.

Just met with my neurologist today, who thinks that my neurotransmitters are low due to amino acid depletion - I seem to burn aminos as Fluge and Mella found.

A serving of liver supplies 54% of the DV of folate, IF your microbiome metabolizes it properly, and IF you don't have genes or environmental factors increasing your need for folate, and IF you aren't on some folate-depleting drug. More is not better, but too much or too little folate can promote all sorts of bad things, so having ther right folate (and not folic acid) intake for you is best. You very well may need more - some folks need up to 15mg a day, some 5mg, some 2, and some only need the 400mcg DV to get by.

As long as you're not allergic to it, and understand what it may be doing for you, it is a fantastic supplement.

 

[Learner1]

Yeah I would imagine absorbtion being much higher with IV, but that is scary it can cause anaphylaxis, she must have been very unlucky!

If you're allergic to it, anyrhing can cause anaphylaxis. Some of the drugs I'm on come with an "anaphylaxis kit." My progesterone has peanut oil in it which could cause anaphylaxis in anyone with a peanut allergy...

Do you consume protein powder to help replenish the amino acids? I'm not sure what my status is when it comes to amino acid, never tested them... it's probably really expensive to test for as well. Although I remember an article about a woman who 'cured' (using that word lightly since she had only been well for a few months) after consuming high amounts of protein powder and basically consuming a lot of calories. She most likely had some type of malabsortion and that caused her body to heal again.

Yes, I have a customized protein powder as the ratio of the amino acids in typical protein powders is not what I need. Many are heavy in arginine which I don't need (it can support herpes family viruses) and not enough glycine, tyrosine, lysine which I am usually shortest of.

You can do an amino panel through LabCorp, or do a comprehensive nutrient test like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval.

I don't know, never tested my MTHFR but I haven't noticed any bad effects from eating liver, it also seems to contain some interesting anti-fatigue compound, and it has a lot of protein so that's good.

Over 50% of people of European descent have a variation in MTHFR. I'm not sure why you think liver would give you bad effects, unless it's not organic, and has toxins. It is a great source of vitamin B12, vitamin A, riboflavin, copper, folate, iron and choline.. B12 will lessen fatigue. Iron can too, if you're anemic.

Have you had a CBC done? A MCV over 94 indicates folate or B12 deficiency. Methylalonic acid will give B12 status (not serum B12). And you can have RBC folate measured.

Leafy greens are still the best sourcecof folate.

 

[panckage]

From what I have read, the majority of serotonin is made in your gut, so if you have serotonin issues, looking toeard your microbiome composition may be helpful.
/

I remember reading this on reddit. Someone noted that this serotonin does not cross the blood brain barrier and mentioned a specific disease mechanism that confirmed this

 

[Learner1]

The blood brain barrier is not as sacrosanct as was once thought. If one has a leaky gut, and most people do, the BBB has been shown to be leaky, too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4660627/

 

[tiredowl]

If you're allergic to it, anyrhing can cause anaphylaxis. Some of the drugs I'm on come with an "anaphylaxis kit." My progesterone has peanut oil in it which could cause anaphylaxis in anyone with a peanut allergy...

Yes, I have a customized protein powder as the ratio of the amino acids in typical protein powders is not what I need. Many are heavy in arginine which I don't need (it can support herpes family viruses) and not enough glycine, tyrosine, lysine which I am usually shortest of.

You can do an amino panel through LabCorp, or do a comprehensive nutrient test like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval.

Over 50% of people of European descent have a variation in MTHFR. I'm not sure why you think liver would give you bad effects, unless it's not organic, and has toxins. It is a great source of vitamin B12, vitamin A, riboflavin, copper, folate, iron and choline.. B12 will lessen fatigue. Iron can too, if you're anemic.

Have you had a CBC done? A MCV over 94 indicates folate or B12 deficiency. Methylalonic acid will give B12 status (not serum B12). And you can have RBC folate measured.

Leafy greens are still the best sourcecof folate.

Do you mind telling me what protein powder you are using? It seems all the vegan ones are high in arginine unfortunately. EDIT: Sorry I just realized you wrote customized..

I hope to figure out my MTHFR status soon. should have tested it sooner.
My methylanoic acid is normal currently.

And the liver I consume is commercial liver sold in the store as ''liver pate'' so yeah, definitely not organic. Not sure how bad it is. Hopefully it doesn't have any toxins.

Also regarding curcumin/turmeric, I stumbled upon some critics saying it is bad now? And I just bought some, sigh...
This article is stating it does some bad things..

Here is the article: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2017/01/12/curcumin-will-waste-your-time

 

[nyanko_the_sane]

I use turmeric for my tummy. I used to have issues with GERD, but not anymore since I have been taking turmeric capsules. It is like magic those antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties of turmeric.

 

[Learner1]

Do you mind telling me what protein powder you are using? It seems all the vegan ones are high in arginine unfortunately. EDIT: Sorry I just realized you wrote customized..

Yes, I did say customized.

I hope to figure out my MTHFR status soon. should have tested it sooner.
My methylanoic acid is normal currently.

Its expensive to test one SNP. You couod get doing a 23andme test which is a better value.

However your actual folate status is better to know as other genes and environmental factors can affect your folate level. You might try having RVC folate and homocysteine measured in addition to MMA.

And the liver I consume is commercial liver sold in the store as ''liver pate'' so yeah, definitely not organic. Not sure how bad it is. Hopefully it doesn't have any toxins.

Here is a discussion evaluating the pros and cons - the conclusion is it shoukd be an occasional treat not a daily meal...

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-the-liver-store-toxins/

Also regarding curcumin/turmeric, I stumbled upon some critics saying it is bad now? And I just bought some, sigh...
This article is stating it does some bad things..

Here is the article: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2017/01/12/curcumin-will-waste-your-time

The article is not an accurate representation. As noted in the comments, there are numerous non-Aggarawal studies that illustrate its properties. And, also noted, is that it can become more bioavailable with the addition of certain substances, like piperine or fats, or by manipulating its form, like nanoparticles.

I have had amazing changes in symptoms with a 30.minute IV of it. It has made severe heafsche, nausea, and intestinal discomfort vanish after too many toxins got stirred up and after IV Immunoglobulins gave me acute symptoms. I have felt it work.

However, after IV curcumin became unavailable, I experimented with several brands and types, and did find that most highly touted brands and formulations did little.

There were 2 products that stood out. The most effective product, by far, is the micellized version CoreCurvumin by nurish.me. and the second best is Designs for Health CurcumEvail.

 

[Gingergrrl]

The past five months i switched to a gel form of curcumin and after the first three months, the lower back pain I had for years with any movement was gone! Countless chiropractic adjustments and acupuncture never touched the pain. I use the brand Smarter Nutrition.

I apologize that I was not able to read this entire thread but I am very interested in trying a curcumin gel (transdermal/skin) for my neck pain, arm pain, and lower back pain which is really affecting my life and ability to function at the moment.

I tried to find the "Smarter Nutrition" gel that you mentioned @RUkiddingME but could only find gel-caps (pill form). Do you remember where you bought it and exactly what it is called?

Or does anyone else have a recommendation for another brand? I never seem to locate what I am looking for on Google but am hoping that a transdermal (skin cream) of curcumin exists. My neck pain is becoming unbearable and trying to think of new options. Thank you in advance.