Turmeric/Curcumin for ME/CFS?

[Prefect]

As I mentioned, curcumin is a broad spectrum detoxer. If you don't have support for other elements of detoxing, you could potentially be mobilizing toxins and have symptoms when they get stuck without the ability to be released fast enough.

Learner1, thanks for your comprehensive explanation. My doctor and I have discussed collaborating with an integrative medicine specialist soon. I found a really good page that explains that stuff you've been talking about very well:

http://www.inl.asia/resources-main-navigation-bar/the-liver-a-detoxification-part-2

It appears curcumin inhibits phase I and induces phase II detox. It puzzles me that it would give me symptoms because I drink alcohol every night (just a couple of red wine servings with dinner) with no ill effect (have for 13 years after I began doubting a CFS diagnosis and also started regularly exercising with no PEM). In fact during the past few years when I was feeling much better on occasion I consumed a stupid amount of alcohol to the point of getting serious hangovers, but this had no impact on me ME cluster of symptoms. Alcohol tends to even ease some of my IBS type symptoms.

I attribute my recent worsening to disruption to my sleep because of my recent shared custody of my 2 year old. I figured if I addressed inflammation through supplements it would counteract inflammation resulting from sleep disruption.

Maybe there is an adrenal fatigue aspect. I also think this because I get better as the day goes, so there may be a low cortisol aspect. In fact when I consume alcohol at lunch time (work meeting! I know how this all sounds I'm not an alcoholic I assure you!) I get severe brain symptoms which slowly go away if I drink gallons of water. But I can drink after 6 pm no problem. I know I have more cortisol as the day goes because my head gets sharper as the day goes. When I wake up in the morning I have an IQ of 3 till maybe lunch time. And I work in engineering.

 

[Learner1]

Learner1, thanks for your comprehensive explanation. My doctor and I have discussed collaborating with an integrative medicine specialist soon. I found a really good page that explains that stuff you've been talking about very well:

http://www.inl.asia/resources-main-navigation-bar/the-liver-a-detoxification-part-2

It appears curcumin inhibits phase I and induces phase II detox. It puzzles me that it would give me symptoms because I drink alcohol every night (just a couple of red wine servings with dinner) with no ill effect (have for 13 years after I began doubting a CFS diagnosis and also started regularly exercising with no PEM). In fact during the past few years when I was feeling much better on occasion I consumed a stupid amount of alcohol to the point of getting serious hangovers, but this had no impact on me ME cluster of symptoms. Alcohol tends to even ease some of my IBS type symptoms.

I attribute my recent worsening to disruption to my sleep because of my recent shared custody of my 2 year old. I figured if I addressed inflammation through supplements it would counteract inflammation resulting from sleep disruption.

Maybe there is an adrenal fatigue aspect. I also think this because I get better as the day goes, so there may be a low cortisol aspect. In fact when I consume alcohol at lunch time (work meeting! I know how this all sounds I'm not an alcoholic I assure you!) I get severe brain symptoms which slowly go away if I drink gallons of water. But I can drink after 6 pm no problem. I know I have more cortisol as the day goes because my head gets sharper as the day goes. When I wake up in the morning I have an IQ of 3 till maybe lunch time. And I work in engineering.

That's a really good link on detoxification.
You may benefit tremendously by working each of the items in the Vicious Circle diagram.

The problem many people have when taking a new supplement is that you're putting it into s very complex system and altering the balance. Some pathways may get unstuck while others bottleneck in new places.

From what you've shared, I suspect you have multiple problems going on. Throwing alcohol into the mix just complicates things.

I'd go back to basics.

Clean up your diet. Go Paleo, or even ketogenic. Eat lots of nonstarchy vegetables. Get grains, soy, and milk out of it. Be alert for food allergies which can cause inflammation.

Look into your digestion. Take a good probiotic. Maybe take digestive enzymes with meals.

Take a high quality multivitamin, like Al's Formula or Extra Nutrients by Thorne.

And a good B vitamin, something like B complex #12, Stress B, or MethylGuard Plus by Thorne.

And drink lots of water.

See if those changes make a difference in reducing inflammation. Then you can reevaluate and tweak.

A stool test and a NutrEval test by Genova Diagnostics could prove very helpful. And a 23andme test.

Good luck!

 

[Little Bluestem]

I take an OTC pain medication for my back that included curcumin. It is great for my back, but I don't think it does anything for my ME/CFS. Of course I do not know that I wouldn't be worse if I were not taking it.

 

[Learner1]

I take an OTC pain medication for my back that included curcumin. It is great for my back, but I don't think it does anything for my ME/CFS. Of course I do not know that I wouldn't be worse if I were not taking it.

It might depend on the dose and also the bio availability of the curcumin, which is notoriously not too bioavailable unless processed correctly.

 

[VitaminK2]

I've been looking into making an injectable form of curcumin for personal use. I imagine the bio availability should still be significantly better than taking it orally. I've tried a dmso mixture so far but it is still not very soluble and I don't want to go too high with the dmso.

My next plan is to try making an injectable water version of with either longvida or theracurmin since they are water soluble. I think it should work fairly well.

 

[Learner1]

I've been looking into making an injectable form of curcumin for personal use. I imagine the bio availability should still be significantly better than taking it orally. I've tried a dmso mixture so far but it is still not very soluble and I don't want to go too high with the dmso.

My next plan is to try making an injectable water version of with either longvida or theracurmin since they are water soluble. I think it should work fairly well.

I have gotten curcumin IVs at 2 of the most advanced clinics using it... the doctors train other docs around the world.

There are very few sources for high quality curcumin. There are some tricks to getting it out of the bottle and into an IV. From what I've seen, it would not be a do-it-yourself project.

It is, however, highly effective for broad spectrum Phase 2 detox as well as for metastasized cancers.

 

[VitaminK2]

I have gotten curcumin IVs at 2 of the most advanced clinics using it... the doctors train other docs around the world.

There are very few sources for high quality curcumin. There are some tricks to getting it out of the bottle and into an IV. From what I've seen, it would not be a do-it-yourself project.

It is, however, highly effective for broad spectrum Phase 2 detox as well as for metastasized cancers.

How did you feel afterwards?

I'm definitely not going to try to do an curcumin IV myself. But an intramuscular version seems doable if I can get my hands on a high quality water soluble version of curcumin. As long as the bioavailability is higher than oral I think it'll be worthwhile to give it a try for a few weeks.

I've made my own injectable glutathione, l-carnitine, and coq10 using the same formulation as compounding pharmacy. Obviously my equipment isn't as hi tech but its adequate and sterile.

 

[Learner1]

How did you feel afterwards?

I'm definitely not going to try to do an curcumin IV myself. But an intramuscular version seems doable if I can get my hands on a high quality water soluble version of curcumin. As long as the bioavailability is higher than oral I think it'll be worthwhile to give it a try for a few weeks.

I've made my own injectable glutathione, l-carnitine, and coq10 using the same formulation as compounding pharmacy. Obviously my equipment isn't as hi tech but its adequate and sterile.

Great!

It's different than other IV fluids.

Curcumin is thick and best in a lipid formulation. I had it in a sequence of 4 IV bags, and the line would occasionally get clogged and have to be changed out. Going through a needle might be challenging.

The reason I had it was that I was having trouble with Phase 2 detox after arsenic or lead was mobilized in my system. I'm a lousy detoxer. I had my gall bladder dumping bile, sulfur coming out of me and I was severely fatigued. (This happened on different occasions.)

The solution was the curcumin, a lot of methylation nutrients, glutathione and molybdenum. I went from feeling awful to feeling like a new person.

It's the same detoxing properties that are valuable in cancer treatment. I've seen it work wonders for other patients.

It's powerful, and worth knowing what you're doing.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Asklipia]

I have started this thread a while ago. Still use it from time to time.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/vaping-turmeric.29510/
Very easy and effective.

 

[justy]

I had a severe gastrointestinal reaction to curcumin in tablet form. I also have MCAS, so not everyone will react this way, but it is a possibility that it can seriously upset the GI system.

 

[SolarMuse]

Turmeric/Curcumin for ME/CFS?

One of our members on MEA Facebook has asked about the use of turmeric/curcumin for ME/CFS

More info below

If anyone on PR is using turmeric/curcumin, or has been using it, feedback would be welcome

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, MEA
Jan 29th 2017

MEA Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/ME-Association-171411469583186/

Info on Turmeric/Curcumin:

Turmeric is a spice that is often used in Asian cooking. The root of the plant it comes from contains a chemical called curcumin, which can be used to make a medicine.

This is then sold in capsule form and is widely available from health shops and some pharmacies

We receive occasional feedback from people with ME/CFS on the therapeutic use of turmeric/curcumin

As with almost all anecdotal reports there is a mixed response - some people have reported that turmeric/curcumin can help with some of their ME/CFS symptoms whereas others find no benefit. A few people report side-effects

As there have not been any clinical trials to assess the safety and efficacy of turmeric/curcumin in ME/CFS we really don't know if it could be of genuine benefit here

There is, however, some interesting research that has examined the therapeutic properties of curcumin and it appears to have genuine anti-inflammatory effects

So turmeric/curcumin may be of benefit in anti-inflammatory conditions like arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease and possibly even ME/CFS - possibly by its effect on pro-inflammatory cytokines (immune system chemicals that cause and maintain inflammation)

Comprehensive research evidence review:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535097/

Turmeric/curcumin is also capable of enhancing serotonin levels in the brain ( a 'feel good' chemical transmitter) and affecting the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis (which is involved in ME/CFS) where it increases the level of the hormone cortisol

Research paper abstract relating to action on the HPA and raising levels of the hormone cortisol:
http://www.bmijournal.org/index.php/bmi/article/view/79

As with any substance that has therapeutic actions, turmeric/curcumin can have side effects, and there are situations where it is best avoided. These need to be considered before using it

Reliable information on side-effects and cautions:
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-662-turmeric.aspx?activeingredientid=662

It would be interesting to hear from anyone with ME/CFS who is using, or has used, turmeric/curcumin...

I just found out that I have CFS, but have had symptoms for yrs. I make a golden tea with turmeric, cinnamon, fresh ground nutmeg and black pepper, and raw cow milk. When I drink this for a few weeks in the morning, I don't have a sore throats and my knees don't hurt. I need to keep up with it, but I never seem to drink it for more than 2 wks at a time.

 

[TrixieStix]

after reading the recent PR discussion regarding Ron Davis's video and mTOR inhibitors I learned Curcumin is an mTOR inhibitor which may not be good thing for ppl with ME/CFS???

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20812900

"...some natural products, such as epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), caffeine, curcumin and resveratrol, have been found to inhibit mTOR..."

 

[Horizon]

I had a severe gastrointestinal reaction to curcumin in tablet form. I also have MCAS, so not everyone will react this way, but it is a possibility that it can seriously upset the GI system.

I don't have a severe reaction but it causes diarrhea

 

[Sushi]

after reading the recent PR discussion regarding Ron Davis's video and mTOR inhibitors I learned Curcumin is an mTOR inhibitor which may not be good thing for ppl with ME/CFS???

I had been taking significant doses of curcumin but after reading this, I decided to drop it and see what happens. I haven't noticed a difference, though adding an mTOR stimulant (is that the right word?), leucine, has made a real difference in the short time I've been trying it.

 

[barbc56]

A patient of a naturalpathic doctor recently died from an IV infusion of curcumin. While any death is sad, tbh. I don't know the particulars of this situation. However, I did happen upon the following review which I found interesting.

The Essential Medicinal Chemistry of Curcumin

ABSTRACT: Curcumin is a constituent (up to ∼5%) of the traditional
medicine known as turmeric. Interest in the therapeutic use of turmeric and
the relative ease of isolation of curcuminoids has led to their extensive
investigation. Curcumin has recently been classified as both a PAINS (pan-
assay interference compounds) and an IMPS (invalid metabolic panaceas)
candidate. The likely false activity of curcumin in vitro and in vivo has resulted
in >120 clinical trials of curcuminoids against several diseases. No double-
blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial of curcumin has been successful. This manuscript reviews the essential medicinal chemistry of curcumin and provides evidence that curcumin is an unstable, reactive, nonbioavailable compound and, therefore, a highly improbable lead. On the basis of this in-depth evaluation, potential new directions for research on curcuminoids are discussed.​

I haven't had a chance to read this thoroughly, but it sounds like this is in line what other posts are saying?

Comments?​

 

[TigerLilea]

I cook with it several times per week, because Indian food is awesome But it doesn't have any impact on my health.

East Indians, who traditionally use turmeric at least once a day if not more, have much lower rates of Alzheimers and dementia, and also have less arthritis pain.

 

[TigerLilea]

"...some natural products, such as epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), caffeine, curcumin and resveratrol, have been found to inhibit mTOR..."

That's interesting about caffeine because I used to drink coffee by the gallons every day for years. I stopped drinking it a couple of years before coming down with CFS.

 

[Eastman]

... However, I did happen upon the following review which I found interesting.

The Essential Medicinal Chemistry of Curcumin

...

Comments?​

There was this article:

Drug screening: Don't discount all curcumin trial data

The liver cycles such that bile production occurs approximately between 3AM and 3PM. The liver shifts to synthesizing chemical and toxins from around 3PM to 3AM. [Source]

Based on what JasonUT wrote and his source, does anybody think it might be a good idea to take curcumin later in the day to try to maximise its effect on liver detox?

 

[Learner1]

A patient of a naturalpathic doctor recently died from an IV infusion of curcumin. While any death is sad, tbh. I don't know the particulars of this situation.

I am aware of the particulars of this situation. This has been taken very seriously in the naturopathic community and an investigation was done into what happened. I was able to read the report.

The patient had an allergic reaction to curcumin. She apparently was allergic to many other things.

Patients die of allergic reactions to allopathic IVs as well, like paclitaxel and IVIG.

Everything has risks and proper precautions should be taken, but this one unfortunate incident should not be the sole reason to avoid curcumin or naturopathic doctors.

 

[Learner1]

Turmeric/Curcumin for ME/CFS?

One of our members on MEA Facebook has asked about the use of turmeric/curcumin for ME/CFS

More info below

If anyone on PR is using turmeric/curcumin, or has been using it, feedback would be welcome

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, MEA
Jan 29th 2017

MEA Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/ME-Association-171411469583186/

Info on Turmeric/Curcumin:

Turmeric is a spice that is often used in Asian cooking. The root of the plant it comes from contains a chemical called curcumin, which can be used to make a medicine.

This is then sold in capsule form and is widely available from health shops and some pharmacies

We receive occasional feedback from people with ME/CFS on the therapeutic use of turmeric/curcumin

As with almost all anecdotal reports there is a mixed response - some people have reported that turmeric/curcumin can help with some of their ME/CFS symptoms whereas others find no benefit. A few people report side-effects

As there have not been any clinical trials to assess the safety and efficacy of turmeric/curcumin in ME/CFS we really don't know if it could be of genuine benefit here

There is, however, some interesting research that has examined the therapeutic properties of curcumin and it appears to have genuine anti-inflammatory effects

So turmeric/curcumin may be of benefit in anti-inflammatory conditions like arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease and possibly even ME/CFS - possibly by its effect on pro-inflammatory cytokines (immune system chemicals that cause and maintain inflammation)

Comprehensive research evidence review:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535097/

Turmeric/curcumin is also capable of enhancing serotonin levels in the brain ( a 'feel good' chemical transmitter) and affecting the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis (which is involved in ME/CFS) where it increases the level of the hormone cortisol

Research paper abstract relating to action on the HPA and raising levels of the hormone cortisol:
http://www.bmijournal.org/index.php/bmi/article/view/79

As with any substance that has therapeutic actions, turmeric/curcumin can have side effects, and there are situations where it is best avoided. These need to be considered before using it

Reliable information on side-effects and cautions:
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-662-turmeric.aspx?activeingredientid=662

It would be interesting to hear from anyone with ME/CFS who is using, or has used, turmeric/curcumin...

I have been taking 3g of high quality oral curcumin daily for 3 years and I've had IVs of it on occasion.

My doctor prescribed it for anti-inflammatory, anticancer, and Phase 2 detoxification.

I wouldn't say it has any effects on my CFS symptoms, but I have definitely felt its positive effects after a car accident and when my body was trying to metabolize and excrete arsenic. And my stage 3 cancer hasn't returned.