Transdermal B12 oils

[Kathevans]

You might have hit on something. We've started treating for bartonella, and everything is changing, including an increased demand for folate. The morning need is extreme (runny nose, bright red eyes).

One other thing I've noted (I actually wrote a thread about it quite a while ago and I'm confirming it here!) is that Adenosyl B12, for me, is definitely a driver of both additional Folate AND Potassium. I've gone up and down on it several times this winter trying to figure this out. The last round, I got as high as 11,000mcg of folate and 5-6 doses of 300mg potassium gluconate/day and ended up getting both dehydrated from the potassium and felt as if my head was buzzing , and my ears ringing (much more than usual!) out of control. Prior to adding a full squirt of the Adenosyl/Methyl Oils/day, I was unable to go higher than about 2-3,000mcg of Folate. And btw, it's not that I want to go higher for no particular reason. My symptoms were benefitting from it: widespread pain in many, many joints, soreness at the spot where muscle meets bone or tendon, continuing tightening of my Dupytrens Contracture and trigger fingers--these symptoms, in particular come and go, twinge or no depending on my most recent folate dose (and of course, in what Fred calls our internal triage system, why wouldn't the hands be the last thing to be taken care of in a body that needs folate in so many areas?!).

Somewhere @Athene* also noted the connection between Adenosyl B12, Potassium and Folate. And here's the link to my thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/adenosyl-b12-driver-of-folate-needs.41685/

It is a mystery. This time, I'm going more slowly with the Adenosyl/Methyl Oil than the last, trying to keep the folate levels under control. But last night I slept at least 7 hours, something that hasn't happened since I stopped the oil, feeling overwhelmed by where I was. Without it, my insomnia was much worse, not to mention pain/body issues.

As a possible point of interest, I have found that the Adenosyl Oil in the mixed container, posted somewhere here to be 1.8 mg ado, along with 0.7 mg meB12, when absorbed is far more potent than 4 of the Seeking Health Adenosyl B12 tablets which have 3,000mcg in each.

 

[Kathevans]

I started taking the Cutler-recommended "Core Four" (C, E, Mg, Zn) which are supposed to help protect your body from mercury-caused oxidative stress. My B12 needs immediately dropped by about half -- I was able to drop to 1-2 squirts a day with ZERO symptoms.

Interestingly, I was already taking these supps, though not at the higher doses recommended by Cutler, and I'm still working my way up toward being symptom-free. In fact, that's a place I haven't begun to aspire to! I'd be content if I could get some pain issues, some insomnia, some of the rapid development of the Dupytrens and trigger fingers (over the last 3-4 years) to lessen...

 

[garyfritz]

Yes, sometimes I feel guilty even mentioning my symptoms. While they drive me mad and decrease my quality of life quite a bit, my minor problems are nothing compared to yours and many others here. I'm just glad my digging on this has helped other people. I hope you get yours under control soon, Kath!

As a possible point of interest, I have found that the Adenosyl Oil in the mixed container, posted somewhere here to be 1.8 mg ado, along with 0.7 mg meB12, when absorbed is far more potent that 4 of the Seeking Health Adenosyl B12 tablets which have 3,000mcg in each.

Same here. I don't remember the Adenosyl sublingual I tried, but I didn't notice ANY effect from it, at ALL. But the ado/me oil is The Bomb. And the adenosyl is definitely important -- methyl oil alone helps a bit, but doesn't control things like the ado/me.

 

[Kathevans]

I don't know why my nighttime B12 needs are so high.

I think the body does a lot of detox/healing work at night, particularly if we manage to sleep!

 

[CCC]

I think the body does a lot of detox/healing work at night, particularly if we manage to sleep!

That makes sense. But how do you tell the difference for a runny nose: a cold or folate need? (I'm starting to think some 'detox' is actually folate deficiency.)

 

[alicec]

That makes sense. But how do you tell the difference for a runny nose: a cold or folate need? (I'm starting to think some 'detox' is actually folate deficiency.)

Try increasing folate and see if the runny nose goes away.

 

[keenly]

I still have 5 new mixed B vits oil, and one used twice for sale if anyone wants them. Message me. I am selling a bunch of supplements to pay bill I recently incurred consulting with doctor.
cheers.

 

[Kathevans]

@alicec @CCC In fact, once I got as high as 7-8,000mcg of folate the runny nose did go away (I'm hovering at about 5,000 for the moment). This runny nose, which I've had for over two years--on and off--is literally a slow drip, like from a leaky faucet, and only from my left nostril! Not very viscous, and thus, for me, not really like a cold. Also, there are no accompanying sinus symptoms, twinges, pressure, aches. As you note, the red-rimmed eyes seem to be a secondary symptom for me, an increase of the folate demand, though I also think of it as a higher need for Adenosyl B12 with its antioxidant qualities.

There were times this symptom and others such as the Dupytrens pain would oddly dissipate or be less insistent when I was working on other supps, say ramping up the B2, etc. It was as if they were taking a back seat. But then, last October, the results of a second NutrEval test in a little over a year showed a marked decline in many of the Bs, and especially B12 and Folate. And in a new marker for methylation, mine was in the red, for High Need. Not good. So I moved forward accordingly. Strangely,as I began to work directly with the folate, and was able to ramp up in ways I hadn't been able to before (not enough molybdenum,say, or selenium, or perhaps functioning B2) then my symptoms with each addition would briefly worsen,as Fred describes in the 'Refeeding' thread.

And yes, some symptoms are certainly folate need, or as I mentioned yesterday, a paradoxical folate need where what you actually need is the B12 in the cells so the folate isn't blocked. If it's later in the day, away from my morning oil squirt or squirts-- still experimenting here--and I am exhausted, say, then it is probably the B12 I need. At night or early morning tingling in my extremities is B12.

But then, the two definitely work together. Greg always says the B12 'recycles' the folate and when that is working, and when your tanks are full, you won't need as much folate. There are certainly folks here who have gotten to that point. I'm not one of them!

Two things: I really wish I understood more of the science, and I am very leery of terming anything 'detox' as I had a very bad experience with this many years ago. It was definitely NOT detox, I needed electrolytes...

 

[wiltedflower77]

Hi everyone is there anyone on here from the UK who knows of a cheaper way/brand of getting b12 oil? The Greg b12 oils work out as $70 for a bottle including shipping which I can't afford right now.

Thank you

 

[UKmum]

Hi everyone is there anyone on here from the UK who knows of a cheaper way/brand of getting b12 oil? The Greg b12 oils work out as $70 for a bottle including shipping which I can't afford right now.

Thank you

Dr Myhill does a B12 oil that is cheaper but I have no idea how good it is or what absorption rate is in comparison. I am buying Gregs oils at the moment for my son but agree it is very expensive to bring in to the UK. Maybe try Dr Myhills first?http://www.salesatdrmyhill.co.uk/transdermal-b12-spray-50ml-48-p.asp £14.40

 

[garyfritz]

Buy them 3 at a time and the price drops to $40 per bottle, and the $20 shipping stays the same - so only about $47/bottle, not $70.

The Myhill product has 250mg of b12, comparable to a bottle of Greg's, but she says it's only 6% absorbed. Greg did a lot of work to optimize his delivery and his animal testing indicated 80% absorption. So I'm not sure it's going to save you money.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

I tried mixing my own when I ran out of the Aussie stuff, but it wasn't nearly as potent. I buy 3 at a time to keep the price lower as Gary mentions. It is pricey but the way I look at it is ....it's the thing that's worked the best out of anything I've tried and it's still cheaper than smoking or drinking (both of which I no longer spend my cash on anymore). I haven't tried anything from the myhill site though so can't say whether her spray is any good or not.

 

[Sidney]

Hi
This is my first post here, but I have been lurking for a few months. Thanks to this thread and others, I have had some success with the Fredd protocol and have recently moved from 10mg sublingual methyl B12 to the hydroxyl/methyl B12 oils. Thanks to all for posting here. I can certainly agree that Greg at B12 oils has really been helpful and has kindly interpreted my Oat results for me. I am aLost constantly amazed at how much cognitive time people invest here. I'm into my 4 th week using the oil and have noticed similarly to others that the dose is far more potent. I am not brave enough to drop my carnitine or Methylfolate just yet. I do have a question. Have others noticed some sores appearing where they apply the oil? These have appeared after 2 weeks of applying the oil and can only really be described as a raised rash that then turns to eczema type rash? I was wondering whether anyone else has had this and if so whether this is temporary? I would post a photo but we have only just met so seems a little forward. I'm from the uk by the way.

Very late reply, I'm afraid, but the symptom is new for me:
I have been happily using Dr. Greg's Methyl and/or Adeno/Methyl for nearly 4 months. Just recently - perhaps 2-3 weeks ? I've been getting a very itchy bumpy rash wherever I've applied it. I wondered if others have, and whether it matters - it goes away.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Very late reply, I'm afraid, but the symptom is new for me:
I have been happily using Dr. Greg's Methyl and/or Adeno/Methyl for nearly 4 months. Just recently - perhaps 2-3 weeks ? I've been getting a very itchy bumpy rash wherever I've applied it. I wondered if others have, and whether it matters - it goes away.

Yes this is exactly what I had. I was applying the methyl/hydroxy blend on my forearms but after around 4 weeks transferred to the buttocks (sorry tmi). This was better and I had less rash there. It did go away after 10 weeks. I took advice from Greg and he suggested that this was probably due to the methyl element and that I should reduce how much b3 (Niacinamide) and b6 (P5P) I was taking. I did reduce this and spread all my b vitamins out across three doses by using a b complex.

I realise that's 3 things so I'm unsure which was the deciding factor. Application Location, reduced b3, reduced b6 or spreading out some of the b vitamins more evenly across the day. I'm just glad I've no longer got red raw itchy arms now

 

[Sidney]

Yes this is exactly what I had. I was applying the methyl/hydroxy blend on my forearms but after around 4 weeks transferred to the buttocks (sorry tmi). This was better and I had less rash there. It did go away after 10 weeks. I took advice from Greg and he suggested that this was probably due to the methyl element and that I should reduce how much b3 (Niacinamide) and b6 (P5P) I was taking. I did reduce this and spread all my b vitamins out across three doses by using a b complex.

I realise that's 3 things so I'm unsure which was the deciding factor. Application Location, reduced b3, reduced b6 or spreading out some of the b vitamins more evenly across the day. I'm just glad I've no longer got red raw itchy arms now

Ha - Thank You! - I will try your location. Unfortunately it's the only variable of yours that I can try, because I don't take any other B supplements. Foggily, I find the whole subject so confusing (anything one takes, it seems, calls for taking something yet else, either to alleviate the effects of the first thing, or to make it work at all...).
But I am glad your rash is gone - a good sign !

 

[Kathevans]

@Sidney I get the rash, too, not from the Methyl Oil alone, which I took for eight months or so without any issues, but with the Adenosyl-Methyl. ANd it's my stomach that reacts with the rash. If I use my hips or thighs it doesn't happen.

 

[garyfritz]

I started noticing an occasional breakout of red spots on my stomach, sometimes bumpy sometimes smooth, at about the same time I started using the oils. I wasn't sure if there was a direct cause/effect relationship there, but it seems to be common enough that it probably is.

I apply the oil to my inner arm, and I often get itchy bumps on my bicep, but not on my inner forearm. I often apply the oil on my stomach or upper thigh, but I usually get the itching up higher, near my sternum or on my chest, and I have never applied the oil there. So for me at least, it doesn't seem to be directly determined by where I apply the oil. @Kathevans, does your stomach break out if you apply to hips/etc, or only if you apply to your stomach? Interesting that only the ado/me oil does that to you. That's almost all I use, so I hadn't noticed a difference with other oils. Has anybody asked Greg about this? It seems to be common enough that he should be interested in the reaction.

I've used a hydrocortisone ointment for decades to control itchy skin mostly caused by dry air, and that also keeps the bumpy itchies mostly under control.

 

[Kathevans]

@garyfritz My bumps also seem higher up, which is to say just at the base of my ribs. And they don't appear when I limit my slurps to the thigh-hip area. I haven't had this reaction on my forearms at all, which is what I always use to spread the oil. I am just starting to apply the oil a third time each day, and, as per Greg, don't use the same arm or area twice as he says there is some sort of detergent/soap that helps with absorption. I often find myself washing off my forearms for re-use!

I haven't mentioned this to Greg yet, as he keeps focusing on a NutrEval test I had last October to say that my supplement levels are way too high, that my B2 somehow still isn't functional if I need such high doses. I'm taking about 45 mg of B2 and might be able to lower it more. I'm just trying to take it slow here. I think I've been dealing with some pretty intense re-feeding of both folate and the Adenosyl B12 as my sleep has been horrific. The third slurp may be the answer, but it's taken a while for me to get use to.

Like you, Gary, I think I may be dealing with mercury levels hijacking the B12 and other things, but Greg thinks this is a boon-doggle, a waste of money. He also doesn't believe in detox, but for the first couple of months on the Ado-Mthyl Oil I had terrible IBS, which has subsided more and more into occasional grassiness. He does say that the B12 changes transit time, and that your gut will not heal unless you get this right, so who knows...

What I will say is that I notice many changes from these oils and the increased folate that they've enabled me to take...but the journey hasn't been an easy one.

 

[garyfritz]

Thanks, Kath. You're still in active communication with Greg - could you ask him about these bumps &etc that so many of us seem to be experiencing? (He got rather grumpy with me the last few times I asked him questions that didn't fit his model!!)

 

[Kathevans]

What a riot! @garyfritz He's gotten the same way with me. I have begun a note to him that begins, "Sorry if I've aggravated you..."!!

I'll get back to it. But for the moment, having reached the 3 splurps last night and sleeping fairly well between 12 and 7 (up only about 1/2 hour other than getting up to pee), when I put on the first dose this morning and took my divided dose of 12mb B2 with small tablets of molybdenum and zinc, and my 5,600mcg first of 4 doses of folate, within an hour I felt exhausted, weak and climbed back into bed. It felt like someone was sitting on my chest. Now, I'm thinking I just needed more folate, and when I took the same dose later this morning, the same exhaustion followed, though not as bad, and adding another 800mcg folate seems to have helped.

This has been my experience of taking the Adenosyl B12. It actually not only enables me to take more folate, it drives my folate need. Maybe much of what I have to heal is in the mitochondrial level. All of this high-level supplementation is a little dizzying, yet now if I don't do it, my symptoms are also disturbing. I'm between that rock and that hard place. But again, maybe the mercury will shift things. For the moment I haven't yet scheduled the work on my second quadrant. The first is barely healed...

And in the interim, I hope things even out...