Tracking my Heart Rate Variability (HRV)

[FuchsiaG]

The emWave2 HRV monitor from Heartmath (and their Inner Balance app for iphone) trains HRV through meditating on positive feelings and heart-centered meditation. I am using it as part of the Gupta Program. Gupta's theory is that the underlying cause of CFS is limbic kindling, that it is a trauma to the nervous system akin to PTSD. I believe his hypothesis is correct, but his methods are not working for me, so I am looking for other methods to calm my limbic system. HRV training is used in people with PTSD, so I think it should help.

See Gupta Progam Session 2 videos on Youtube for the explanation of his theory.

See The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel Van Der Kolk, for research on low HRV in PTSD.

 

[Paintmyturquoise]

@voner
That is interesting. I am starting to wonder whether or not I am going to get much useful information out of this. So far my morning values are very stable, but they can vary a lot at other times of day. I actually tested the impact of meditation the other day. The meditation itself was very, very relaxing and I almost feel asleep a number of times during it, however when I retested my HRV at the end it had actually dropped compared to where it was at the beginning. It makes no sense.

I've read about this, there's a state achieved during meditation called coherence, it resembles sympathetic activity and can cause seemingly bad readings.

 

[Cheesus]

@FuchsiaG
I tried Gupta for a long while too, but it didn't work for me. I also tried to calm the amygdala with various other methods for a long while, but none of those worked either. In the end I decided that it simply was not the cause of my condition (or, if it is, that cognitive techniques are insufficient to achieve balance).

What is the heart-centred meditation you are doing? Metta? That has a good deal of research suggesting that it can increase vagal tone.

@Paintmyturquoise
That is interesting. It was certainly an interesting meditative state that can only be achieved infrequently and is not akin to anything that people tend to experience outside of meditation. I can certainly imagine that it might cause unusual readings. I would be interested to read more about coherence as I have not come across it before.

I have now been using the vagus nerve stimulator I ordered online. I will update you all with readings and information about it once I have been trialling it for a bit longer.

 

[Cheesus]

@ahimsa

That blog was really interesting, thanks!

 

[Little Bluestem]

The short answer is that I do not know.

I love it when other people are guinea pigs!

 

[Lolo]

I love it when other people are guinea pigs!

Rather than sheep.

 

[Lolo]

I have just bought a HR monitor online but didn't realise that I need a smart phone. Wish I had come across this thread beforehand.

Gupta didn't work for me either, found it tiring.

 

[Cheesus]

I have just bought a HR monitor online but didn't realise that I need a smart phone. Wish I had come across this thread beforehand.

Gupta didn't work for me either, found it tiring.

There is a computer programme called Bluestacks that can emulate an Android phone operating system. You could probably set that up, download an HRV app into Bluestacks from the Android store and use your laptop to measure your HRV (if your laptop has bluetooth, which it should).

 

[Lolo]

Thanks for your reply @Cheesus but I don't have a laptop or bluetooth. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to this stuff. Just have an old p.c. and an old samsung phone, nothing wireless here.

There is a computer programme called Bluestacks that can emulate an Android phone operating system. You could probably set that up, download an HRV app into Bluestacks from the Android store and use your laptop to measure your HRV (if your laptop has bluetooth, which it should).

 

[Cheesus]

@Lolo
If you want to dip your toe into the 21st Century with something relatively inexpensive, there is a really good LG phone that straddles the line between old-school and smartphone, because it runs an Android operating system but has a proper keypad (it is also a flip phone, which means it is about as cool as a phone can be)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/H410-Wine-...1479114105&sr=8-2&keywords=android+flip+phone

Just a suggestion

 

[Lolo]

@Cheesus thanks for the suggestion but too expensive for me. $10 phone credit lasts me a couple of months so I can't justify the cost of that phone. I was just hoping to check my heart rate as an experiment to avoid PEM and maybe see if I have OI.

I thought it would work like a pedometer.

 

[Sidereal]

@Cheesus

You might find the linked paper below useful?

Post concussion patients have similar patterns autonomic disturbance including reduced HRV that limits exercise and there are early indications that a very gentle programme of graded exercise (yes I know - but this is individually tailored to AVOID provoking symptoms) may help restore autonomic balance and cerebral blood flow :

http://www.academia.edu/20023456/Ce...al_Postconcussion_Syndrome_in_Female_Athletes

Fascinating paper. So many parallels with ME/CFS.

 

[Marco]

Fascinating paper. So many parallels with ME/CFS.

Yes - many parallels including some symptoms supposedly exclusive to ME/CFS such as alcohol intolerance and possibly PEM. Interesting also because with post concussion we know unambiguously that the problem starts with 'neuroinflammation' and in a minority of cases doesn't resolve leading to post concussion 'syndrome'.

I feel we might be able to learn a lot about ME/CFS from the mechanisms whereby an acute concussion can lead to chronic symptoms such as fatigue; exercise intolerance; autonomic dysfunction etc.

 

[Sidereal]

Yes - many parallels including some symptoms supposedly exclusive to ME/CFS such as alcohol intolerance and possibly PEM. Interesting also because with post concussion we know unambiguously that the problem starts with 'neuroinflammation' and in a minority of cases doesn't resolve leading to post concussion 'syndrome'.

I feel we might be able to learn a lot about ME/CFS from the mechanisms whereby an acute concussion can lead to chronic symptoms such as fatigue; exercise intolerance; autonomic dysfunction etc.

So then the question is, why has the GET treatment approach failed for ME/CFS while it appears to work for the post-concussive syndrome?

 

[Marco]

So then the question is, why has the GET treatment approach failed for ME/CFS while it appears to work for the post-concussive syndrome?

Hard to say.

With post-concussion syndrome, the initial concussion activates the brain's immune system to repair the damage but in some cases (due to severity, genetics or other pre-disposition) neuroinflammation seems to be prolonged or possibly stuck in a self-sustaining 'loop'.

With ME/CFS, if neuroinflammation is involved, we don't know what the initial trigger is (it could be a range of 'stressors') or what prolongs or perpetuates it. It may be self-sustaining or driven by some other central or peripheral stimulus (autoimmune?).

Plus the GET approaches are very different. In post-concussion exercise tolerance is symptom limited and the GET approach is both individually tailored and aims to avoid symptom exacerbation. Exercise is stopped immediately at the first sign of symptom exacerbation. As you well know the GET approach for ME/CFS is the exact opposite - one size fits all and symptoms are to be ignored (I also suspect in PACE that the exercise regime was deliberately toned down to mimimise 'adverse events'). Pretty simple minded in fact compared to the post concussion approach.

 

[student]

FEEL and (breath) - to feel deeper. My system called hearthmath 'pro' (is little more cost, comes as: USB-stick plus ear-sticker) and uses this computer.
What is this "Coherence"...? Technically HR-Coherence is an easy measured detail (of pulse/ breath and others). NO NEED to understand any of this theorie that is used. I start level 'low' and I am ever so happy - reaching the 0.9- 1.1 coherence.
...ear clip 'in' (4) and 'START' button -below (and it says 'VIEW - mandala'). After a few minutes - File, export. My verry first steps. Let us see our human heart as 'the verry center' of our health. And do everything for it that is positive. (I delayed starting this.) I wanted this aquipment. After finding this 20 $ lower price - had waited to long to buy it. The reason for writing -NOW. This month... in Europe/ or 'sale heartmath' August 2017- found a reduction. http://www.heartmathbenelux.com/store.php?id=150&sec=1&lang=en (or email ask for your heartmath 'reduction code' /sale- google)

I hope this tool gives my a simplistic - regular 'training' option (3- 5 min 2x daily - hocked into this, 1x week little longer - just connect/ maybe verry small 'aims') and more often 'in this green' line state... It is said to hang in for 42 days regularly in order to build one of our good habits. I will now start/ try my 'PRO' aquipment.

 

[student]

HRV 'Coherence ' showed good numbers, when loaded with Magnesium, Vitamin C - and lots of Oxigen ...
HRV-changing Effect was obvious. Puls-Curve strong (was vage - like small Tee-spones). It than showed steep and strong. The heart-rate curve became verry regular. (and at my New.be level 'low' I was getting Coherence above 0. 9. Even numbers like 2.0 upto 4.0 came in reach.)

Now - what exactly do I mean with ogigen effects: (@ ICES micropuls - pemf ) I heard of a positive effect of the - HOF breath method. So I searched YT - and started my exercise.

 

[BadBadBear]

I have been monitoring my HRV with the Elite HRV free app for five months now. I haven't found the HRV numbers by themselves a good measure to track progress.

What I do is I take the morning readiness test (in a semi lying down position) and compare my heart rate and HRV from that measure to my heart rate and HRV from a 1 minute standing messure that I take right after. I then look at the variations from the lying down heart rate and HRV and the standing up heart rate and HRV. The less variation, the better.

I make my own statistics and I have found the monthly trend to be the best for my use. I do the stats weekly so I get an early heads up and can adjust. I find that the sleep patterns are what affects the heart rate data the most.

Every case is unique, it might be different for you. This is definitely going to be very useful in managing your ME.

Hi Dechi. I have read your HRV posts and have been tracking my HRV on a Polar V800. When I do a morning reading it is not so bad lying flat. Readings are generally 30 to 40. Once I stand for the second part of the test readings fall to the 7-10 range for RMSSD. I am not sure what to make of my poor numbers. Would this be a reflection of dysautonomia? Are the numbers useful at all when you can't recover enough to see them rise or fall? I am finding seeing my low numbers first thing in the morning to be stressful, which I have to think is not helpful.

 

[Dechi]

@BadBadBear I never paid attention to RMSSD but when I take the 1 minute test standing, it's around 11-12 lately.

Honestly I haven't found an easy way to predict much with these readings, except for the standing part. I use the HRV reading amd it's variations, mostly.

 

[BadBadBear]

@Dechi - have you had the experience of your HRV suddenly rising? I had a 35(!) point jump this morning in my supine HRV, and feel pretty horrible today. Standing HRV was in the same range as usual.

I read on the EliteHRV site: "If your HRV rises abnormally high (above a certain standard deviation) within a day or a few days, the app indicates with a yellow or red that you are likely experiencing abnormal amounts of recovery (Parasympathetic NS activity). This is often in response to accumulated amounts of stress." https://elitehrv.com/faq

Any thoughts on this? They seem to think the body goes into a "deep recovery" mode when there is a sudden jump. Huh?