tip for anyone doing chelation and having a hard time

[Catseye]

Another tip I should have started off with, and I added it to the first post today, is that you have to drink a lot of water while chelating. It makes a huge difference in the way you feel. During those few times I felt the weird tingling, it was probably because those days I forgot to drink enough water. I will make sure I drink one liter of water during each 3 hour session. And when I get home I'll drink another couple of glasses before I go to bed.

 

[xrunner]

1) Wonder Laboratories EDTA 625 MG.
2) Interfase Plus (it has enzymes and stuff also for biofilm treatments apparently.)

Edta alone will break down the biofilm which is made partly by minerals like magnesium, calcium etc. The other enzymes in my experience don't work very well for that.

Catseye,
biofilm protects bugs from immune assault, once you break it down they become vulnerable.

Just a note on dmps, apparently it's not only a good metals chelator but also of other types of neurotoxins from bacteria, mold etc.

I found the following it quite informative, it explains in simple words all the biological steps to get toxins from inside body cells and out of the body.
(part 26 to 31 talks about the properties of various chelators)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwKCe8BP8S0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

[endomeister]

For what it's worth, I've had good results orally with Sun Chlorella and I know many others who've done well with oral chelation. There are some advantages to oral chelation which IV doesn't offer according to Dr. Gordon. The only thing I don't like about his formulas is that they have garlic in them and it is something I must avoid. My wife had a poor reaction to his formula, also, as it made her irritable; she has M.S. and I believe did not tolerate the garlic well, either.

I believe oral chelation and support is a very important component. I found that enriching my diet with more greens (which supports natural chelation/detox) really helped improve my physical (and mental) energy and stamina. This seems to really help people with sluggish liver/biliary function.

You might want to google Dr Dietrich Klinghardt on youtube and watch his lectures on autism and chelation. I found them very informative. It is very interesting how many people - after oral chelation for many days or weeks - can very suddenly release large burdens of mercury and metals as a result of mineral displacement (as tested by urine and stool sampling).

 

[Vegas]

No, not a misstatement. It says here in Andy's book to take lipoic acid every 3-4 hours. I didn't notice any difference between 3 or 4 hours, so I did 4 because it was easier and would then coincide with the DMPS. But I don't think it was the right time for DMPS for me. I'm going with the new doc's recommendations from now on. It's already working and I don't feel bad.

I thank you for telling me this, though. I'll keep it in mind for when I start the DMSA because I'll probably be adding the ALA, so I'll make sure to try 3 hours.

Yes, the book is a bit outdated. The practical experiences of many more people who have taken ALA as part of a frequent dose chelation protocol since this time establishes that 3 hours is far superior to 4. Although perhaps counterintuitive, more frequent administration also generally lessens side effects.

 

[therron]

I started out with severe dysbiosis. As I cleaned up my diet and killed off the bugs with oil of oregano, I took tons of supplements to support digestion and the liver and methylation was restored, eventually. I had tried the SMP, but dysbiosis prevented my liver from working properly. I got some energy from the folate way back then, but I never had dramatic results until the methylation cycle was "on" again. I remember it clearly. It was a 2 week period where my energy levels and good feeling increased enormously. It took a really long time between when I embarked on a very aggressive diet and supplement plan to fix the dysbiosis and when the methylation cycle restarted. I don't really remember offhand, but I believe it was over a year. Dysbiosis has to be fixed first because it is overloading the liver with toxins, yeast and bacteria. I do remember it's been 4 1/2 years since I started that aggressive program.

Hi Catseye,
I believe that I am facing a similar hurdle in kickstarting my methylation. I too, get two good weeks when everything clicks, then I backtrack to terrible gut and brain issues. Yeast is a big issue. I know that I have terribile dysbiosis, but have had limited success in dealing with it. A round of antibiotics made me feel great for one week only. Antifungals kill my liver. Probiotics make things worse. Olive leaf extract helped reduce pain for over a year, but I believe has now lost its effectiveness. My diet has been extremely limited for about 3 years in the favorite foods of my little beasties (I don't know who they REALLY are). I feel much worse when eating any carbs, sugars, dairy products (bloating, pain, brain buzzing, insomnia). I started oil of oregano about 3 days ago, and the pain disappeared right away, but the bloating is still really bad. I know that I need a comprehensive way of continuing treatment in order to truly fix this dysbiosis for the long haul. Any additional ideas that you can share would be greatly appreciated. By the way, my doctor wanted to do a biofilm protocol called Interfase Plus, but I haven't been able to find anyone who has been helped by this product. We also have no tests showing which species we are dealing with. Stool tests were no help.)

 

[endomeister]

Hi Catseye,
I believe that I am facing a similar hurdle in kickstarting my methylation. I too, get two good weeks when everything clicks, then I backtrack to terrible gut and brain issues. Yeast is a big issue. I know that I have terribile dysbiosis, but have had limited success in dealing with it. A round of antibiotics made me feel great for one week only. Antifungals kill my liver. Probiotics make things worse. Olive leaf extract helped reduce pain for over a year, but I believe has now lost its effectiveness. My diet has been extremely limited for about 3 years in the favorite foods of my little beasties (I don't know who they REALLY are). I feel much worse when eating any carbs, sugars, dairy products (bloating, pain, brain buzzing, insomnia). I started oil of oregano about 3 days ago, and the pain disappeared right away, but the bloating is still really bad. I know that I need a comprehensive way of continuing treatment in order to truly fix this dysbiosis for the long haul. Any additional ideas that you can share would be greatly appreciated. By the way, my doctor wanted to do a biofilm protocol called Interfase Plus, but I haven't been able to find anyone who has been helped by this product. We also have no tests showing which species we are dealing with. Stool tests were no help.)

I believe if metallothionein is broken, or zinc has been chronically low, it is difficult at best to eliminate yeast until these problems are resolved. Some medications (such as beta blockers) and supplements (such as turmeric/curcumin) that impair or lower the body's tnf-alpha production can worsen or result in yeast problems in susceptible persons, as can oral contraceptives and NSAID's. After taking care of all of those issues, then steps such as chewing cloves of fresh garlic (if tolerated) can help the body overcome and eliminate yeast overgrowth. Without eliminating yeast overgrowth, the immune system can remain permanently impaired.

 

[SJB944]

This is interesting.

Why does lowering tnf alpha via the supplementation of tumeric result in yeast overgrowth?

Cheers
SJB

 

[endomeister]

This is interesting.

Why does lowering tnf alpha via the supplementation of tumeric result in yeast overgrowth?

Cheers
SJB

Turmeric can result in yeast/fungal overgrowth by suppressing tnf-alpha. TNF-alpha is important in the body's defense against fungal infections.

Turmeric is so effective at lowering tnf-alpha, it is used by many Behcet's Disease (B.D.) patients to help them heal. B.D. is characterized by over production of tnf-alpha.

Turmeric is a wonderful supplement/spice but it has to be used with caution in patients with yeast/fungal problems.

 

[Catseye]

Hi therron,

Which stool tests did you do? Have you tried the Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis by Genova? It lists each bacteria and yeast and their levels.

Have you eliminated all grains? Grains are yeast food, as you know, and they are notorious for causing bloating. Gluten is the worst offender, of course, but you would likely do better without any. I avoid all wheat, dairy, corn and soy like the plagues they are and I eat a very small amount of grains, mostly brown rice - but only like 1 tablespoon at any one time. I eat mostly veggies (not root ones, too high in carbs) and salads with some raw nuts, meat, chicken and eggs. Right now I'm avoiding even fruit as I try to kill off gut bugs.

Can you chew garlic cloves? I'm with endomeister on this. I've cured strep throat and full body yeast infections by chewing up garlic. You have to chew it because there are a couple of compounds in it that mix together to produce the acid with killing properties. It's quite powerful. Don't try it unless you have a glass of water in your hand as a chaser. When garlic is chewed, it burns like hell, it may as well be a jalapeno pepper. I first used garlic for infections because I couldn't tolerate antibiotics or antifungals and I still can't. Also brush your teeth right after since the acid can eat the enamel.

I think I'm having biofilms coming apart because I was having some abdominal cramping until I used some oil of oregano. I use ADP, by Biotics Research. It comes in emulsified tablets that burn your mouth if you don't swallow them right away. My old doc prescribed high doses of this to kill off yeast and bad bacteria. On the bottle it says each tablet is oregano 50 mg standardized extract from leaf. When I'm out to kill bugs in my gut, I use 5 tablets 3x per day on an empty stomach for 10 days. After that, it's 3 tablets 3x per day with meals. It's worked for me before so that's what I'm doing again now. Your strategy is that you have to starve them while you kill them. It sounds like you already know what to avoid, so do it daily, without exception. And keep on killing them with the OOO.

According to my first stool tests, I killed off the yeasts (I had 3 kinds, including candida) in about 9 months or so but the bad bacteria took much longer. Don't consider the diet as a temporary thing, if you're very bad off you're going to be on it for a loooong time. So hang in there with the diet and OOO and you should be okay, eventually. If you can afford it, I can tell you which doc helped me get over the dysbiosis and got the methylation cycle working again. Otherwise, just do the diet and OOO for awhile and then start adding in some liver methylation aids like MSM. Also, make liver cleanse pills a daily routine if you can. I like Milk thistle Liver Cleanse by Nature's Secret and and Bupleurum Liver Cleanse by Planetary Herbals. I take 2 pills every day, alternating brands.

 

[Catseye]

Hi therron,

If you know your liver isn't performing up to par, there are some other things you can take to help it along besides liver cleanse pills. Like bioactive forms of B vitamins (especially folate, pantethine and p5p), taurine (an amino acid crucial for detoxification), digestive enzymes and betaine hcl if you think it's possible you are not producing stomach acid in sufficient amounts. Undigested food is particularly hard on the liver and will clog it up.

 

[therron]

Hi therron,

Which stool tests did you do? Have you tried the Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis by Genova? It lists each bacteria and yeast and their levels.

Have you eliminated all grains? Grains are yeast food, as you know, and they are notorious for causing bloating. Gluten is the worst offender, of course, but you would likely do better without any. I avoid all wheat, dairy, corn and soy like the plagues they are and I eat a very small amount of grains, mostly brown rice - but only like 1 tablespoon at any one time. I eat mostly veggies (not root ones, too high in carbs) and salads with some raw nuts, meat, chicken and eggs. Right now I'm avoiding even fruit as I try to kill off gut bugs.

Can you chew garlic cloves? I'm with endomeister on this. I've cured strep throat and full body yeast infections by chewing up garlic. You have to chew it because there are a couple of compounds in it that mix together to produce the acid with killing properties. It's quite powerful. Don't try it unless you have a glass of water in your hand as a chaser. When garlic is chewed, it burns like hell, it may as well be a jalapeno pepper. I first used garlic for infections because I couldn't tolerate antibiotics or antifungals and I still can't. Also brush your teeth right after since the acid can eat the enamel.

I think I'm having biofilms coming apart because I was having some abdominal cramping until I used some oil of oregano. I use ADP, by Biotics Research. It comes in emulsified tablets that burn your mouth if you don't swallow them right away. My old doc prescribed high doses of this to kill off yeast and bad bacteria. On the bottle it says each tablet is oregano 50 mg standardized extract from leaf. When I'm out to kill bugs in my gut, I use 5 tablets 3x per day on an empty stomach for 10 days. After that, it's 3 tablets 3x per day with meals. It's worked for me before so that's what I'm doing again now. Your strategy is that you have to starve them while you kill them. It sounds like you already know what to avoid, so do it daily, without exception. And keep on killing them with the OOO.

According to my first stool tests, I killed off the yeasts (I had 3 kinds, including candida) in about 9 months or so but the bad bacteria took much longer. Don't consider the diet as a temporary thing, if you're very bad off you're going to be on it for a loooong time. So hang in there with the diet and OOO and you should be okay, eventually. If you can afford it, I can tell you which doc helped me get over the dysbiosis and got the methylation cycle working again. Otherwise, just do the diet and OOO for awhile and then start adding in some liver methylation aids like MSM. Also, make liver cleanse pills a daily routine if you can. I like Milk thistle Liver Cleanse by Nature's Secret and and Bupleurum Liver Cleanse by Planetary Herbals. I take 2 pills every day, alternating brands.

Hi Catseye
1. I don't know which stool test I did, but it wasn't Genova. I'll ask my doctor about this.
2. Yes, I have been grain free for 3 years and gluten free for 7 years. I eat very much like you do. Thank goodness for my Rhode Island reds!
3. I haven't tried chewing garlic, but I did have good success in combatting thrush with 3 weeks of swallowing minced garlic. Like you, I don't tolerate pharmaceutical antifungals. My liver can't handle it.
4. Congratulations on making a dent in your biofilm. That's what I'm working toward. Biofilms are very tricky, and all the so-called experts disagree on how to go about this. I would love to find PWCs who are finding success. Most of the time, people report feeling worse and stopping the protocol.
5. Thanks for the specific tips for taking OOO. I have been slowly working my way up, to be sure I could tolerate side effects.
6. Yes, I agree with you that liver support is necessary. In the past, I had a terrible response to milk thistle, but I have now made enough overall progress to have been able to add a very small daily dose. I will continue to work with the dose so that I get a better result. Thanks for your tips on specific products and administration ideas. Good luck on your continued improvement!

 

[therron]

I believe if metallothionein is broken, or zinc has been chronically low, it is difficult at best to eliminate yeast until these problems are resolved. Some medications (such as beta blockers) and supplements (such as turmeric/curcumin) that impair or lower the body's tnf-alpha production can worsen or result in yeast problems in susceptible persons, as can oral contraceptives and NSAID's. After taking care of all of those issues, then steps such as chewing cloves of fresh garlic (if tolerated) can help the body overcome and eliminate yeast overgrowth. Without eliminating yeast overgrowth, the immune system can remain permanently impaired.

Hi Endomeister,
So, do you think a zinc supplement would help? I have been taking a small amount for the past month, but I have read recently that biofilms collect minerals, specifically magnesium and calcium, so I'm not sure about continuing. Can you tell me more about metallothionein?

 

[endomeister]

Hi therron,

If you know your liver isn't performing up to par, there are some other things you can take to help it along besides liver cleanse pills. Like bioactive forms of B vitamins (especially folate, pantethine and p5p), taurine (an amino acid crucial for detoxification), digestive enzymes and betaine hcl if you think it's possible you are not producing stomach acid in sufficient amounts. Undigested food is particularly hard on the liver and will clog it up.

I agree, those are good ideas for some people. Response to supplements is very individual, however, in my experience.

Also, if a person is an undermethylator, TMG can be a very good choice. It also stimulates digestion and helps the liver clear toxins and elevate glutathione. For those who are overmethylators, this can have negative impacts, though. Here is a chart for those who are uncertain about their methylation status:

http://is.gd/8j3mYm

 

[richvank]

I agree, those are good ideas for some people. Response to supplements is very individual, however, in my experience.

Also, if a person is an undermethylator, TMG can be a very good choice. It also stimulates digestion and helps the liver clear toxins and elevate glutathione. For those who are overmethylators, this can have negative impacts, though. Here is a chart for those who are uncertain about their methylation status:

http://is.gd/8j3mYm

Hi, endomeister.

For what it's worth, several people with ME/CFS have reported that Carl Pfeiffer's "overmethylation/undermethylation" categories don't seem to fit them well. I have found it more definitive to run the methylation pathways panel offered by the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in New Jersey, which directly measures the levels of SAMe, SAH, adenosine, 7 folate parameters. and both reduced and oxidized forms of glutathione. From these results, one can get a good idea of what is actually going on at the biochemical level, with respect to methylation.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[endomeister]

Hi, endomeister.

For what it's worth, several people with ME/CFS have reported that Carl Pfeiffer's "overmethylation/undermethylation" categories don't seem to fit them well. I have found it more definitive to run the methylation pathways panel offered by the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in New Jersey, which directly measures the levels of SAMe, SAH, adenosine, 7 folate parameters. and both reduced and oxidized forms of glutathione. From these results, one can get a good idea of what is actually going on at the biochemical level, with respect to methylation.

Best regards,

Rich

Good point. I agree that laboratory testing is ideal, and whenever possible should be done. However, lab testing is unfortunately impractical for some folks to get ordered, and many people like myself find themselves very strongly fitting the profile for undermethylation or overmethyaltion from the chart I provided. The chart should only be used as a guideline.

Interestingly, even with clear laboratory testing results, many people do not respond to indicated therapies as expected. We have a long way to go to more fully understanding these complex interrelated metabolic pathways and their ramifications.

The upshot is that each patient to some degree has to use trial and error insofar as dietary and supplement changes to find what works best for them.

The charts and also the laboratory testing results - although often very helpful - serve only as a starting point for patients and clinicians. I hope most people understand that.

 

[richvank]

Right on, endomeister! Every person is unique.

Rich

 

[Catseye]

I had been getting glutathione at the end of every chelation session but since it was getting so expensive, I starting opting out of the glutathione and didn't really notice a difference. Of course, I'm now 38 sessions into it and have had at least 30 glutathione pushes. I probably won't do any more glutathione since I don't seem to need it and it costs anywhere from $50-$75 depending on how much I get. In the beginning, I was so terrified of a bad reaction, I didn't dare go without the glutathione. By now I've settled into a nice routine, doing it twice a week, and my liver is holding up just fine. whew

 

[Catseye]

I just got my latest metals test results back. It's encouraging. Lead has reduced a bit and gadolinium and cadmium have risen off the charts. This means that as the lead is getting out of the way and using less of the edta, the other metals are being grabbed. Remember, these tests just measure what is leaving the body at any given time, not what's in it - that can't really be measured.

I have an appointment to discuss the results with the doc on Tuesday. If anyone has any general questions about this type of chelation, post them here and I'll ask him.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Markmc20001,

I think most of us would feel better about keeping politics off the board completely. The absolutely INSANE poilitical advice of Ron Paul would destroy this country.

 

[Valentijn]

I think most of us would feel better about keeping politics off the board completely. The absolutely INSANE poilitical advice of Ron Paul would destroy this country.

Maybe your message would be more effective if you didn't ignore your own advice in the same paragraph