Thoughts on Suicide — A Dream Experience

[Mary]

Hi @Wayne - thanks so much for your very thoughtful generous post. You’ve raised a subject which I’m sure most of us never talk about, but many of us think about. I tend towards a belief in reincarnation - it strongly appeals to me, much more than the traditional Catholic teachings I was brought up with. I’ve read a lot about and been influenced by Edgar Casey. His life story is fascinating as well as his many readings and they have shaped my reincarnation beliefs. From these I’ve taken the idea that in general suicide is wrong because it’s running away from problems - it’s not a solution - one will find the same problems on the other side and it will actually be harder because of the suicide, so it’s better to stay here and deal with things.

However, if someone is dealing with intractable pain or a devastating illness, I just don’t know - how much are we supposed to endure? I wouldn’t presume to judge someone in that situation (or anyone for that matter) if they committed suicide. It’s not my place or job to judge anyone anyways.

Casey said we’re here for a reason, to learn lessons, to "smooth out rough edges" as Wayne said (good analogy!) I too wonder sometimes if CFS is some sort of karmic lesson for me. Then I think of all the horrific things people have endured on this earth (the Holocaust and other genocides to name a few) and would never dare to say that these were some sort of karmic lesson. And Casey says sometimes a person is sick to teach others - sort of like Tiny Tim I guess!

So what am I saying with all this? I don’t have any answers, just a lot of questions. I do believe that life is not inherently meaningful and that it is up to us to give it meaning by how we live. And some part of me believes that just because I’m alive, there’s a reason for it (though I don’t know what it is). Other parts of me are not so sure!

I was thinking the other day that when sometimes I wished it were all over, that it’s not that I really want to die, I just don’t want to be sick any more - there’s a difference. I do want to live very much.

BTW, Wayne, I’ve dreamed about cars before too and generally they too seem to represent my body. I remember one from a couple of years ago vividly: It was a beautiful sunny day after a very powerful storm and I was walking around this small town (it was unusual I was walking as I rarely walk in dreams or real life), enjoying the day. It was gorgeous out. And I realized I needed to find my car. I followed the road out of town which turned into a dirt track, and there sat a big mud-covered lump the shape of my car - a VW bug. It was solidly covered with several inches of mud but I was very glad to see it, and managed to scrape away enough mud so that I could get in, and voila! It started right up. It was so great, it hadn’t been hurt by the storm, it was ready to go. When I woke up it seemed to mean that even though I had a lot of toxins and illness to deal with, fundamentally my body was strong and healthy. It was a very encouraging dream. I did have a VW bug many years ago. It was a great little car.

 

[Dreambirdie]

And that's another question that always intrigues me: why do we know nothing? If there is more to the cosmos than just the physical world, and if there are afterlife states of existence that a soul can reside in, why is this information kept from us in the physical world?

Why are we not allowed to know about these other states? Why is there this cosmic censorship? Doesn't God accept freedom of information requests? Is there a reason why the afterlife does not want to maintain a communications link to us in the physical world?

We only know what is true to our experience, and that is never a certainty in the same way a fact would be. But it has a ring of personal truth nevertheless, perhaps in the same way instinct does.

One answer to this might be that we don't yet have the technology to probe into such other states of existence. Not so long ago we never had the ability to probe into atomic structure, for example. Now we can. Perhaps in due course, those living in the physical world will discover and connect to these afterlife lands.

This answer is also the same one that some people have suggested for the reason why we do not see our physical universe teeming with advanced life: the idea is that when a civilization in our universe gets advanced enough, they develop the technology to break through into other non-physical realms of existence, and having done so, they realize how paradisiacal these non-physical realms are, a what a shit hole in fact the physical universe is, and so abandon the physical universe never return from paradise! And that's why we don't see advanced life in our physical universe: because our universe is the bum end of the cosmos, a place that no self respecting soul would be seen alive in!

Our universe doesn't seem to me to be the bum end of the cosmos, but the world people have created surely does. And that's because we humans are in fact the most immature species on earth. We have been here a much shorter time than other creatures, and it shows.

 

[Tammy]

Isn't it amazing, though, when you read accounts of out-of-body near death experiences, how the deceased relatives of the supposed out-of-body soul invariably seem to urge that soul to return back to their body, and to face their duties and responsibilities back on Earth, rather than the relatives warmly inviting them into the pleasant afterlife reality that they all enjoy. You often hear this when you read NDE accounts. You'd think your relatives would say: "Hey it's really wonderful here in paradise, don't go back, stay with us in the afterlife!" .

Then again, if there were many cases where a person's deceased relatives warmly invited the out-of-body soul to stay with them in paradise, we would not hear about those cases!

Ha! good point!

 

[Tammy]

BTW, Wayne, I’ve dreamed about cars before too and generally they too seem to represent my body. I remember one from a couple of years ago vividly: It was a beautiful sunny day after a very powerful storm and I was walking around this small town (it was unusual I was walking as I rarely walk in dreams or real life), enjoying the day. It was gorgeous out. And I realized I needed to find my car. I followed the road out of town which turned into a dirt track, and there sat a big mud-covered lump the shape of my car - a VW bug. It was solidly covered with several inches of mud but I was very glad to see it, and managed to scrape away enough mud so that I could get in, and voila! It started right up. It was so great, it hadn’t been hurt by the storm, it was ready to go. When I woke up it seemed to mean that even though I had a lot of toxins and illness to deal with, fundamentally my body was strong and healthy. It was a very encouraging dream. I did have a VW bug many years ago. It was a great little car.

I have also had a dream of a VW bug!............it was abandoned and had been stripped inside........just a shell and Patrick Swayze was performing Reiki on it........why Patrick Swayze I have no idea!.......but upon wakening I did feel like the car represented my body. I also have a lot of dreams where I'm driving and my brakes don't work.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Wow I never dream about cars! Does this mean my body is beyond repair?

 

[Dreambirdie]

Wow I never dream about cars! Does this mean my body is beyond repair?

No, it just means your psyche is choosing a different metaphor for your body.

 

[Mary]

Wow I never dream about cars! Does this mean my body is beyond repair?

I wouldn't worry unless you start dreaming about Edsels! (which you may be too young to know about, in which case you absolutely have nothing to worry about!)

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Mary I have no idea what edsels are so I must be too young?!!

 

[Sushi]

@Mary I have no idea what edsels are so I must be too young?!!

Thought to be the ugliest car ever made!

 

[Mary]

@Mary I have no idea what edsels are so I must be too young?!!

Yes, you're too young - not a bad thing!

 

[Gingergrrl]

Yes, you're too young - not a bad thing!

It's a bad thing when you are sick though . And I am not that young...

 

[Hip]

Our universe doesn't seem to me to be the bum end of the cosmos, but the world people have created surely does. And that's because we humans are in fact the most immature species on earth. We have been here a much shorter time than other creatures, and it shows.

I wasn't referring so much to human life and this planet, but the rather whole caboodle, the entire astronomical universe of stars and galaxies that we assume was created out of the Big Bang.

Could it be we were allocated a duff universe, in the grand cosmic lottery?

Nowadays, cosmologists toy with mathematical ideas suggesting ours is not the only universe, and that there may be many others, possibly each with different laws of physics, and so each different in their fundamental nature.

Cosmologist Max Tegmark once said something really fascinating about the nature of our universe: apparently if the minus sign in front of the time term in the equation that cosmologists use to describe our universe had been a plus sign instead, we would not be living in this state of existence where we are unable to know anything about the future (apart from the educated guesses and predictions that our minds are capable of making of the future).

Max Tegmark said that if we lived in a universe that had a plus sign instead, we would have full knowledge of the future. We would be able to see the future. Max Tegmark pointed out, with a grin on his face, that in such a universe we would not even need a brain! A brain is only a necessary piece of equipment in our universe, because we can never know the future, so we rely on the information processing in our brains which tries to predict the future, for survival reasons.

It all sounds quite surreal I know, but it's interesting to contemplate that the reason we cannot banish suffering from this world is because our universe does not have the right laws of physics necessary to establish a paradisiacal state of existence with no suffering.

I think in Christianity, some thought is given to this; whether you can build heaven on Earth; ie, thought on whether this is possible or advisable.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Cosmologist Max Tegmark once said something really fascinating about the nature of our universe: apparently if the minus sign in front of the time term in the equation that cosmologists us to describe out universe had been a plus sign instead, we would not be living in this state of existence where we are unable to know anything about the future (apart from the educated guesses and predictions that our minds are capable of making of the future).

Max Tegmark said that if we lived in a universe that had a plus sign instead, we would have full knowledge of the future. We would be able to see the future. Max Tegmark pointed out, with a grin on his face, that in such a universe we would not even need a brain! A brain is only a necessary piece of equipment in our universe, because we can never know the future, so we rely on the information processing in our brains which tries to predict the future, for survival reasons.

Well... as usual, Hip, you are WAY beyond me!

Based on the above, "if I only had a brain" could be sung as if I only had a universe with a plus sign. Not as catchy, but maybe I could get used to it.

Since there are days where I clearly do not have a working brain, I would like to cash that in for being able to know the future... but only if the future includes the answer to the riddle of this endless disease.

 

[Mary]

It's a bad thing when you are sick though . And I am not that young...

It's a very bad thing when you're sick, especially with this extremely debilitating, baffling illness, no matter what age -

 

[Hip]

Well... as usual, Hip, you are WAY beyond me!

Perhaps I am on the wackiness dimension! Actually I just started taking this new supplement today (called Peak ATP), which is making me feel a bit wacky and lateral in my thought processes. So rather than the usual attempts to address the neurological issues we have in our brains, my thoughts have turned to moving to a universe in which brains are not necessary!

 

[Wayne]

So rather than the usual attempts to address the neurological issues we have in our brains, my thoughts have turned to moving to a universe in which brains are not necessary!

Hi @Hip, I've been appreciating some of your musings, whether wacky or otherwise. Your above comment reminded me of a story I once read that I thought you might appreciate.

A young child awoke one morning and told her Mom that a spiritual guide near and dear to their family had come to her during the night. She excitedly told how when he arrived, they went on a long journey together flying through the stars. During this time he "took away her mind", and that after doing so, she KNEW everything! She then said that when the journey was over, her mind was given back to her--and that she then become all dumb again. -- Just a child's wild imagination??

 

[Wayne]

I have completely changed my views on suicide after being so ill from ME. I was never, ever judgmental about it and had tremendous empathy after witnessing a suicide of someone I knew who shot and killed himself..

However, if someone is dealing with intractable pain or a devastating illness, I just don’t know - how much are we supposed to endure? I wouldn’t presume to judge someone in that situation (or anyone for that matter) if they committed suicide. It’s not my place or job to judge anyone anyways.

Thanks @Gingergrrl and @Mary for articulating so well precisely how I look at things. I also feel a great deal of empathy for someone who feels they can't go on, and agree completely it's not our place to judge them.

I live in Oregon, which passed the first physician assisted suicide statute in the nation–and which I wholeheartedly supported. It barely passed the first time around, and opponents of it managed to get it back on the ballot again to try to repeal it. With the extra time and discussion between the first and second votes, it easily passed the second time around with about 60% of the vote.

The stipulations are rather stringent [two doctors need to certify you have six months or less to live]. I've long thought there should be more flexibility because it excludes a large segment of the population whose lives are deteriorating rapidly and/or experiencing almost unimaginable distress and agony. Shouldn’t it be their decision as to when they feel they can no longer tolerate their suffering anymore, instead of the state?

One major finding from monitoring this statute for the past 20 years or so, is that only about a third who get the prescriptions to end their lives actually use it. And virtually everyone who got the prescription, whether or not they ever used it, stressed how much it significantly improved the quality of their lives, just KNOWING they were now able to control their circumstances at the end of their lives. — I think it was @Tammy who mentioned she didn’t think there would be some kind of karmic ramifications in circumstances such as this, and I would tend to agree.

I’m very interested in the discussion now taking place in Canada regarding nationwide rules on physician assisted suicide. It appears it’s going to end up being much more flexible than Oregon’s, and as far as I’m concerned, the more flexibility it allows, the better. I fully support people having control over their own destiny during times of great health challenges, and don’t feel anybody else has the right to judge or interfere in their decisions. Apparently, about 86% of Canada's population feels the same way. — Here’s a video clip from PBS which documents the evolving situation in Canada. One of the criteria being dicussed is whether a patient has "a grevous and irremediable medical condition".

Canada grapples with how to govern a patient’s right to die

In March, Canada's Supreme Court ruled unanimously that all Canadians have a constitutional right to have doctors help them die. Special correspondent John Larson reports from British Columbia on how doctors, patients and politicians are grappling with how to set rules and eligibility in the next year.​

 

[Mary]

@Wayne - That's extremely interesting how having control over one's life and death improved people's quality of life so much. Maybe the assisted suicide law will paradoxically enough actually help prevent suicides, since having control over one's final end would all by itself make living more bearable.

Thanks again for this thought-provoking thread!

 

[Tammy]

I live in Oregon, which passed the first physician assisted suicide statute in the nation–and which I wholeheartedly supported. It barely passed the first time around, and opponents of it managed to get it back on the ballot again to try to repeal it. With the extra time and discussion between the first and second votes, it easily passed the second time around with about 60% of the vote.

The stipulations are rather stringent [two doctors need to certify you have six months or less to live]. I've long thought there should be more flexibility because it excludes a large segment of the population whose lives are deteriorating rapidly and/or experiencing almost unimaginable distress and agony. Shouldn’t it be their decision as to when they feel they can no longer tolerate their suffering anymore, instead of the state?

Yes...........the stipulations I don't care for because someone could be suffering but not necessarily have a fatal disease..........this needs to be changed.

 

[frozenborderline]

One major finding from monitoring this statute for the past 20 years or so, is that only about a third who get the prescriptions to end their lives actually use it. And virtually everyone who got the prescription, whether or not they ever used it, stressed how much it significantly improved the quality of their lives, just KNOWING they were now able to control their circumstances at the end of their lives. — I think it was @Tammy who mentioned she didn’t think there would be some kind of karmic ramifications in circumstances such as this, and I would tend to agree.

i bolded the part in your quote--wayne-- that really rings out to me. the thought of being able to have an exit out of this suffering really, really helps me. I don't want to have to use it. but I feel terrible not having the option, especially since i've been getting so much worse recently. the next spurt of energy I have i want to use to arrange things so that I can pass if I need to... meaning get some affairs in order, and , well... I won't talk details about the other part because I assume that would be a little much for this board