This Requires A Very Good Explanation

[Angela Kennedy]

@Angela Kennedy

What irritates me most about some people is when they accused others of ad hominem attacks when they themselves do the same. People in class houses shouldn't throw stones. You are from the mecfsfourms. There is a sort of delusional paranoia in that forum that has been so destructive toward researchers and scientists who are researching the cause and cure for this illness. This is well known within the scientific community. You have no idea how this has hurt the cause in ME/CFS research. The Brits from the UK are a strange lot. You have no idea what is going on. ERV analysis is spot on. It is not about the slides. There is additional information that you are not privy to. Many retrovirolgists read her blog and agree with her analysis of XMRV and Mikovits constant declarative statements based more in fiction than in fact. Her blogs are based on fact. ERV is upset at Mikovits for her lack of transparency and full disclosure. Unless you have the scientific knowledge and experience to discern the difference between fact and fiction, I suggest not commenting on here with your prejudicial views and should maybe express them on the other forums. The truth will come out.

Eco

Ok, I actually do have the scientific knowledge and experience to discern the difference between fact and fiction. Mind you, a lot of people have here too, even the people not employed as scientists.

Apart from that, your comments here are hilarious! Calling people 'delusional' and paranoid? ERV 'spot on'? Those are the most ridiculous, emotive, hyperbolic comments I've heard today! You silly, silly sheep.

KFG - THESE are comments from emotion not reason. I know- I'm laughing at them. I guess that's an emotion as well. But when faced with incongrous silliness at this level, there's not much else can be done!

 

[FancyMyBlood]

I agree with Ecoclimber 100% and am also getting increasingly frustrated about the way some people on the other forum are conducting themselves.

It's time they start realizing they're only damaging the ME/CFS community and to be quite frankly, their denialistic and paranoid approach would make an outsider think there is some psychiatric component to the disease of those people. I'm getting sicker and sicker of this all.

 

[Undisclosed]

I agree with Ecoclimber 100% and am also getting increasingly frustrated about the way some people on the other forum are conducting themselves.

It's time they start realizing they're only damaging the ME/CFS community and to be quite frankly, their denialistic and paranoid approach would make an outsider think there is some psychiatric component to the disease of those people. I'm getting sicker and sicker of this all.

Indeed, Ecoclimbers words are very strong and probably against forum rules but sometimes it is very hard to just keep one's mouth shut or post strong words masked by gooey sweetness. The way they treated Billy on the other forum was abhorrent and he was correct in his statements. Rather than address this calmly and rationally with proof that he is wrong, they attacked his character etc with a load of ad hominems. I suppose if Angela Kennedy is to be allowed to break forum rules here, then the mods can't play favourites. Note, she inulted everybody on this forum in this thread. I think the post by Ecoclimber is just a good example of frustration.

 

[floydguy]

I agree with Ecoclimber 100% and am also getting increasingly frustrated about the way some people on the other forum are conducting themselves.

It's time they start realizing they're only damaging the ME/CFS community and to be quite frankly, their denialistic and paranoid approach would make an outsider think there is some psychiatric component to the disease of those people. I'm getting sicker and sicker of this all.

Yes, apparently ecoclimber has now become afflicted with paranoid rants. Welcome to the community ecoclimber!!

 

[Bob]

... and am also getting increasingly frustrated about the way some people on the other forum are conducting themselves.

Have you thought about not going to the other forum?

Just a thought.

 

[Wonko]

In the face of the recent news would it not be posible for us all to pull together a little slower? So that in the act of coming together as one voice we dont do it in a way that causes our "community" to shatter?

May not be a particularly helpful or intellegent observation but to be honest I simply cant follow most of whats been said in the last couple of pages, possibly because I rarely go to the other place, possibly because my brain doesnt do politics very well these days, possibly because I see most of whats being bickered about as irrelevant.

On the threads main issue - bit irrevant now, probably always was, not sure what happened but obviously a mistake on some level - deliberate fraud - pull the other one. On the WPI closure - bad news, amazed and ashamed by proxy to see some on here attacking Judy, whilst I dont think all of her comments were helpful, surely no one can doubt her determination, passion and desire to help us - I hope she finds a way to continue but if not - thank you Judy and I hope you recover from this.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

Indeed, Ecoclimbers words are very strong and probably against forum rules but sometimes it is very hard to just keep one's mouth shut or post strong words masked by gooey sweetness. The way they treated Billy on the other forum was abhorrent and he was correct in his statements. Rather than address this calmly and rationally with proof that he is wrong, they attacked his character etc with a load of ad hominems. I suppose if Angela Kennedy is to be allowed to break forum rules here, then the mods can't play favourites. Note, she inulted everybody on this forum in this thread. I think the post by Ecoclimber is just a good example of frustration.

Wow. I've been taking part in a serious, SERIOUS debate all afternoon here. And you think I'm breaking forum rules? As you have not been able to substantiate this claim, you are quite clearly wrong.

But hey guys, GREAT way to derail a serious debate! Go for the faux outrage while making unsubstantiated allegations.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

In the face of the recent news would it not be posible for us all to pull together a little slower? So that in the act of coming together as one voice we dont do it in a way that causes our "community" to shatter?

May not be a particularly helpful or intellegent observation but to be honest I simply cant follow most of whats been said in the last couple of pages, possibly because I rarely go to the other place, possibly because my brain doesnt do politics very well these days, possibly because I see most of whats being bickered about as irrelevant.

At the risk of breaking forum rules
Bob, almost always helpful, imformative and/or amusing posts
Angela, I rarely agree with your viewpoint but dont doubt your motives, just your approach on occasion
Eco, again I dont necessarily agree with some of what you post but thats my problem not yours so keep at it
people from the other place, welcome back, I, at least, welcome other opinions of the non rabid variety.

On the threads main issue - bit irrevant now, probably always was, not sure what happened but obviously a mistake on some level - deliberate fraud - pull the other one. On the WPI closure - bad news, amazed and ashamed by proxy to see some on here attacking Judy, whilst I dont think all of her comments were helpful, surely no one can doubt her determination, passion and desire to help us - I hope she finds a way to continue but if not - thank you Judy and I hope you recover from this.

Wonko, don't doubt your motives, disagree with most of what you say.

**********Moderation:Text deleted.

 

[Wonko]

I domt support eco or you, reason being i cant figure out what you are "debating"

edit

or why

all I know is that a rather sad thread which I was following with dread, watching people fragment in a most disturbing fashion, has suddenly become not just upsetting but completely incomprehensible to me.

possibly i should stick to safe threads but TBH I was hoping that once the intital shock was over posts would be more productive

and I'm not suggesting you (or anyone) shouldnt post what you like, thats for the mods to decide not me, I'm just giving you my take on it so far, I'll go find a rock/ get my coat / etc.

 

[FancyMyBlood]

Have you thought about not going to the other forum?

Just a thought.

Of course I have and I don't visit it that much anymore after I had an argument about homeopathy (which they defended since a 'respected' ME/CFS UK doctor recommended it). But it's not about me personally getting frustrated about their approach, it's me getting frustrated on them damaging the ME/CFS community. Wether we like it or not, we need science and scientists to find a cure. Unjust attacks and denialism will not work in favor for our community.

Wether I visit the place or not is irrelevant for this particular argument.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

Of course I have and I don't visit it that much anymore after I had an argument about homeopathy (which they defended since a 'respected' ME/CFS UK doctor recommended it). But it's not about me personally getting frustrated about their approach, it's me getting frustrated on them damaging the ME/CFS community. Wether we like it or not, we need science and scientists to find a cure. Unjust attacks and denialism will not work in favor for our community.

Wether I visit the place or not is irrelevant for this particular argument.

Oh come on now! The forum didn't defend homeopathy! There was various forms of disagreement (shock! horror!)

You are making false generalisations here.

 

[Undisclosed]

I don't see any favoritism in moderation. As far as I can see (as of this moment), neither Eco nor Angela has been moderated. When a mod has time to get to this thread, I expect moderation to be fair and in keeping with forum rules.

That was what I was trying to say.

 

[joshualevy]

I absolutely disagree eric... It's a simple mistake made on a presentation...
The presentation was not submitted for peer review, to be passed off as fact, and so therefore no fraud has taken place.
It was a simple presentation error.
Think of the millions of ways in which two images could have become confused whilst the presentation was being prepared.

But what if the mix up occurred during data analysis?
You're assuming that the mistake was made just for the presentation (which is possible) but what if it was actually made just before data analysis (which is also possible)? Then the whole line of research could be off, and (at a minimum) the lab is very, very sloppy.

Joshua (not Jay!) Levy

 

[shannah]

Here's the latest. See at the bottom of the page:

http://retractionwatch.wordpress.co...r-mikovits-now-fired-share-data-with-science/

Update, 7:30 p.m. Eastern: The Chicago Tribunes Trine Tsouderos, who has been covering the XMRV-CFS story for years, just tweeted the following comment from Science, apparently in response to questions about a story shes about to file:


We are aware of allegations of mislabeled images in 1 of the figures in the 2009 Science paper + in meeting slides.

Tsouderos story comes on the heels of a post by Abbie Smith alleging such image manipulation.

 

[Sing]

I started to read ERV's blog and immediately noticed two typos. She used the word 'to' for 'two' twice right at the beginning. Is this professional? Could she be prone to haste and error?

Now I am being a little sarcastic. I find ERV's tone extremely so, however. Her blog is an exercise in contemptuous ridicule. It reminds me of the Far Right's daily attacks on President Obama and other Democrats. It reminds me of the hateful crowds in lynch mobs or following prisoners to the gallows or guillotine or stake. I would look no farther than this hatefulness to even consider what she has to say. She lost me from the outset with her style of extreme contempt.

 

[shannah]

And this

Manipulation alleged in paper linking virus, chronic fatigue syndrome

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-paper-10032011,0,6792877.story

 

[floydguy]

And this

Manipulation alleged in paper linking virus, chronic fatigue syndrome

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-paper-10032011,0,6792877.story

Trine has absolutely no credibility with me. She is squarely tied to the hip to the crowd that is aghast that a handful of desperate patients are taking anti-retrovirals (presumably with a prescription from their MD). She writes incessantly about that. Meanwhile a much larger portion of the population is addicted to pain killers, meth and all sorts of legal drugs. But I guess that's just fine with Trine. If Trine was really interested in the drug aspect of it she would do an undercover story on the amount of medication seniors are on in some retirement facilities. Maybe Trine could post some of A list recipes in another thread.I could use some diversity in what I cook.

Trine et al are going to have a field day with this turn of events...

 

[Bob]

It's still all speculation.

 

[Bob]

But what if the mix up occurred during data analysis?
You're assuming that the mistake was made just for the presentation (which is possible) but what if it was actually made just before data analysis (which is also possible)? Then the whole line of research could be off, and (at a minimum) the lab is very, very sloppy.

Joshua (not Jay!) Levy

The mix-up is in a presentation slide, Joshua. It's not in a published paper.

So yes, I am assuming that the mistake occurred just in the presentation, because that is the easiest and most obvious assumption to make.

Any other assumptions at this stage just lead to wild and unnecessary speculation, in my opinion.

Of course I don't know that I'm correct about this, but nor does anyone else.

 

[Bob]

This went to Science and should have been embargoed until the investigation with the authors. It is valid. I suggest contacting Mikovits for the validation if you have any doubts.

Was that directed at me ecoclimber? I don't undestand what you mean?

This is just the tip of the iceberg. That is why I said I am privy to information that is confidential that others don't have and were merely speculating on.

I do enjoy your tantalising and sensationalist posts ecoclimber (irony).
But they are quite meaningless for the rest of us unless you flesh them out a bit.