The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Aileen

Aileen

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For people who are taking probiotics in addition to RS, LAG etc., do you take them all at the same time? I have been taking my probiotics at the same time as my LAG. I'm also using Kefir, but I taking this at a different time. I'm just not sure what is compatible when taken together.

I have PS here, but have been afraid to try it. The LAG and probiotics created symptoms when I first started taking them. I felt that it was just my body adjusting. With the PS, how will I know if the symptoms are a good thing, or if it is feeding bad bugs and should be stopped?
 
Christopher

Christopher

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Aileen said:
For people who are taking probiotics in addition to RS, LAG etc., do you take them all at the same time? I have been taking my probiotics at the same time as my LAG. I'm also using Kefir, but I taking this at a different time. I'm just not sure what is compatible when taken together.

I have PS here, but have been afraid to try it. The LAG and probiotics created symptoms when I first started taking them. I felt that it was just my body adjusting. With the PS, how will I know if the symptoms are a good thing, or if it is feeding bad bugs and should be stopped?
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You won't.
 
V

Vegas

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577
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Virginia
Ripley said:
I don't know what was in the offending yogurts/kefirs and kombucha, as each of them I obtained at a farmer's market.

But here are the ingredients in Primal Defense Ultra:


Interestingly, Garden of Life's standard/non-ultra version of Primal Defense appears to be the same thing without the Saccharomyces Boulardii (I think it's cheaper too). I suppose I could buy some and take it to see if it's just the Saccharomyces Boulardii.
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I think it would be useful to know what effect the yeast may be contributing. The only other apparent commonality in these products is an abundance of homolactic organisms, which I have implicated as possibly being problematic, rightly or wrongly. Gestalt's diagram is very compelling. I have a somewhat different idea about what might be occurring in your case, but I'd like to see what happens with the removal or the sole supplementation of the S. boulardii, if you are willing. While LPS can certainly contribute to hyperpermeability of the BBB, tax resources that can exacerbate inflammation, decrease bioenergetics and contribute to brain fog, this is not a principal or primary symptom. At least I don't think so.
 
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V

Vegas

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Sidereal said:
Speaking of candida, I got a flare after two capsules of NAG (Artinia).
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Whole capsules? Perhaps not such a good idea. I use one per week spread out over 21 doses. Chitin is metabolized by bacteria, in part, as an anti-fungal. If the organisms that preferentially metabolize this are only found in small numbers, yes, I think you could make this worse. This may become very confusing, so let me find some time to explain this further.
 
L

lizw118

Senior Member
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315
Vegas said:
Whole capsules? Perhaps not such a good idea. I use one per week spread out over 21 doses. Chitin is metabolized by bacteria, in part, as an anti-fungal. If the organisms that preferentially metabolize this are only found in small numbers, yes, I think you could make this worse. This may become very confusing, so let me find some time to explain this further.
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Can you explain this? I think the same thing might have happened to me, where NAG exacerbated either candida or lyme. If I take small amounts would I still have some benefits without the bad bacteria and/or candida getting stronger?
 
Avengers26

Avengers26

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158
I recently started low doses of Larch Arabinogalactan. It's strong stuff & too early to say, but overall, I am positive about it. I also ordered chitin- glucan & will try it in the future. Thanks to vegas & ripley.

I have had severely painful bloating in the past (like a MS "Hug", no disrespect intended). It would make it very hard for me to breathe. Last 1 week, it has been a bit more tolerable. Also, yesterday, was one of the much better days I have had in a while.

I started drinking aloe vera from Trader Joe's yesterday. Dr. Leo Galland is big on it. Will see how that goes.

Earlier this month, I had made the transition to a paleo diet. In hindsight, it wasn't a well thought out decision. From a very carb rich diet (200g+ all my life) to a paleo diet, it was just too much stress for my body. 4 days ago, I instead decided to lower my carbs only 20% every month & do it over a course of 3-4 months. I would like to lower my carbs to about 100-125g or so, no lower. VLC would be disastrous for my very weak adrenals. So, I have no intention of doing that.

Re: Resistant Starch, I am tolerating 2 Tbsp of PS well. I had been thinking about other types of starch for more variety & I bought Bob's tapioca starch but i read conflicting info on FTA blog including it causing a much higher BG spike than PS or plantain.

This forum has been a godsend. Thanks to all the esteemed members here. Wish I had found it sooner.
 
V

Vegas

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lizw118 said:
Can you explain this? I think the same thing might have happened to me, where NAG exacerbated either candida or lyme. If I take small amounts would I still have some benefits without the bad bacteria and/or candida getting stronger?
Click to expand...

Chitin is found in micro and macroscopic fungi including S. Boulardi, Candida albicans, and mushrooms, including those that Ripley has been advocating. It is found in the exoskeleton of shells of arthropods including insects, crabs and other shellfish. It naturally occurs in shrimp, octopus and squid. A number of fruits, which possess the ability to synthesize chemicals capable of breaking down chitin, are highly allergenic to many people, including kiwi and banana, and these are associated with latex allergies. Latex plants, like these fruits, are also equipped with chitinase capabilities, which, in part, provides anti-fungal defenses.

Humans don't make chitin, nor do bacteria. Humans do have some ability to degrade chitin, and these enzymes participate in the defense against certain pathogens, like Candida and Malaria, but this appears to be significantly less important than our microbial defenses, and the bacterial ability to decompose chitin or prevent fungi from replicating.

I became interested in chitin after looking closely at the enzymatic capacity of the organisms that participate in maintaining the intestinal lining, Including those bacterial organisms that benefit directly or indirectly from the utilization of acetylated chitin. (chitosan, by the way is de-acetylated chitin, thus it does not linked to acetic acid). The limited research that is available suggests that the organisms that are highly enriched by the provision of chitin come from the Cluster XIVa of Clostridial organisms, which are the primary butyrate synthesizing organisms at the mucusal layer in the large intestine.

Chitin and glucan are commonly contained together, such as in mushrooms, and the immunomodulatory benefits of these two polysaccharides are distinct. What they have in common is an ability to stimulate macrophagic responses and permeate the intestinal epithelium and circulate through the reticuloendothelial system and into circulation.

These immunomodulatory properties, presumably relates, at least to a large extent, to the microbes that are stimulated by the constituents, because key microbes multiply with the availability of this substrate. Chitin supplementation favors those organisms that comprise the mucosal lining, and there is evidence that glucan supplementation stimulates the expansion of those organisms that help "patrol" the mucosal layer and produce acetic acid. In fact, the some beta glucan linkages are only known to be hydrolyzed by Bifidobacteria. There is a ecological niche that has been preserved.

This is a generalization, but it seems abundantly clear that various whole plants, fungi, and other sources of "resistant" polysaccharides simultaneously support these phylogenetic networks that maintain health. Chitin and glucan are only one example of co-occuring carbohydrates that promote symbiosis. Given that humans, mammals, vertebrates, and other complex lifeforms have survived in diverse environments with highly variable macronutrient availability, it is not surprising that these resistant polysaccharides with such great potential are the most abundant of all in nature. This includes starches from unprocessed plant matter, chitin, cellulose, xylan, algae, and stuff modern humans don't eat so much anymore.

There is ample evidence of upregulation of chitinase enzymes in humans with various autoimmune/inflammatory conditions. In this case, this over-expression involves the enzymatically-inactive chitinases, rather than those enzymes your body makes to degrade chitin. This human enzyme attaches to chitin and invokes an immune response. As I recall, the evidence shows a strong correlation between enzymatic expression of enzymatically-inactive chitinases, and disease severity. Some have suggested that this be used as a marker for inflammatory disease because this change in gene expression has now been found in asthma, airborne allergies (which are often marked by chitin rich fungi and dust mites), rheumatoid arthritis, multiple inflammatory bowel diseases, etc. The same has been found in multiple forms of cancer, which is biochemically similar to these inflammatory diseases in so many ways.

This is seemingly an unusual finding to have such a diverse array of "inflammatory conditions" marked by upregulation of this particular set of enzymes that attaches to molecules of chitin. The overexpression of these enzymes has not yet been explained. The upregulation may relate to the availablity of acetate and butyrate and the relative lack of the organisms that support the synthesis of these short chain fatty acids. While there are likely genetic underpinnings I strongly suspect that the abberant host response is causally related to the dysbiotic conditions.

Chitin is an acetylated form of glucosamine, it has an acetate molecule, unlike chitosan, which is de-acetylated. It is a polymer of β-1,4 N-acetylglucosamine (NAG), in other words a bunch of NAG monomers joined with β-1,4 bonds. These are very strong bonds and designedly broken or hydrolyzed by certain enzymes, enzymes possessed by certain bacterial organisms. Some microbes have enzymatic superiority, and these reactions are also affected by metabolic conditions, which exist. There are corresponding mechanisms which sense how active or inactive these reactions should be.

Chitin becomes available for use by humans not only through food sources, but also when the yeast cell walls in our GIT are broken down. Everyone has yeast, but obviously it needs to be held in check. While this occurs through various human derived mechanism like neutrophils, IL-17 T cells, and antimicrobial peptides, there are widely complex host-micorbial interactions that are under exploration. Not unlike the lysate commercial products some on this site have derived benefit from, there is an apparent built in protection against pathological organisms. When commensal organisms die, their cell-walls are used by commensal organisms to stimulate organisms that break the glycosidic bonds in chitin and thus kill more fungal organisms. Similarly, many gram-positive organisms contain lipids in their cell walls which inhibit the inflammatory response created when we come into contact with lipopolysaccharide. The problem seemingly arises when those organisms via depletion or harsh environmental conditions cannot maintain the optimal conditions for maintaining the intestinal epithelium. The conditions in the upper colon influence those in the large intestine and vice versa. I don't profess to be an expert in this area (or any for that matter) but the organisms I believe we need to promote are those that rely upon a particular metabolic pathway, those which utilize the pentose phosphate pathway.

Getting back to chitin. Research into using chitin as an immunomodulator is still in its infancy, but there are some very intriguing results, including the aforesaid ability to independently increase the macrophagic response and promote T1 immunity. Interpreting the significance of immunological therapies is always difficult, but I think it is safe to say that chitin has some potentially very useful properties. It seems, however, that there are good and bad forms, with some compositions have pro-inflammatory potential.

The current evidence favors acetelyated versus de-acetylated chitin (no chitosan), insoluble vs. soluble chitin, and very small particle size. The use of chitin micro-particles is of particular interest to me because the chitin-glucan I have been using, while acetylated and insoluble, is not a micronized particle and would presumably require further microbial hydrolysis to induce a more anti-inflammatory profile. If one is deficient in the organisms that possess this enzymatic capability, this is problematic. At present, I am not aware of any micronized chitin product, although there are micronized mushrooms that contain chitin, glucan, and other compounds, the concern is that these other compounds, while likely important in encouraging the cross-feeding partners, may elicit an undesirable immune response in those with ME/CFS and other inflammatory diseases. Obviously, there are many variables and other considerations. Chitin whether it be from a mushroom or Aspergillus niger is structurally and chemically identical, but the particle size and inclusion of other immunomodulatory agents does vary.

Anecdotally, I know someone who has craved natural sources of chitin-rich foods from the time he was a small child, including every sort of shellfish, octopus, squid, snails and other polysaccharides from the sea, like seaweed, that were resistant to digestion by humans. This was always very curious to me because these represented food that most children would not eat and he also abhors bananas and most all fruit. His mother is allergic to some of these fruits, but this did not develop until adulthood. From this purely anecdotal observation, there could be an advantage to chitin rich foods and benefits conferred by avoiding certain foods that elicit an immune response via exposure to certain substances liberated by chitinase enzymes. His father has ulcerative colitis, and has done quite well with chitin-glucan, which has provided good results in the treatment of this condition in this inflammatory bowel disease, although this research is not marked by a large number of studies yet.

As some have suggested, a whole product (like a whole mushroom product) may be ideal for many, although this may be contraindicated for ME/CFS. I would like to see how some would respond to a micronized chitin product without other components, but I can't seem to find any available. I certainly wouldn't advocate high-dose supplementation and it may not even be advisable for people with a tendency to develop yeast infections to take this as the chitin supplementation may disproportionately tax the immune response designed to counter these organisms, which may be a product of having sufficient microbes, which can utilize this special polysaccharide directly or indirectly. In other words, you may need a different microbial signature with robust chitinase capacity. The supplement can and does support those organisms that possess this particular capability yet the existing environmental conditions may not optimal for growth and development since this is a complex ecosystem.
 
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V

Vegas

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577
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Avengers26 said:
I recently started low doses of Larch Arabinogalactan. It's strong stuff & too early to say, but overall, I am positive about it. I also ordered chitin- glucan & will try it in the future. Thanks to vegas & ripley.

I have had severely painful bloating in the past (like a MS "Hug", no disrespect intended). It would make it very hard for me to breathe. Last 1 week, it has been a bit more tolerable. Also, yesterday, was one of the much better days I have had in a while.

I started drinking aloe vera from Trader Joe's yesterday. Dr. Leo Galland is big on it. Will see how that goes.

Earlier this month, I had made the transition to a paleo diet. In hindsight, it wasn't a well thought out decision. From a very carb rich diet (200g+ all my life) to a paleo diet, it was just too much stress for my body. 4 days ago, I instead decided to lower my carbs only 20% every month & do it over a course of 3-4 months. I would like to lower my carbs to about 100-125g or so, no lower. VLC would be disastrous for my very weak adrenals. So, I have no intention of doing that.

Re: Resistant Starch, I am tolerating 2 Tbsp of PS well. I had been thinking about other types of starch for more variety & I bought Bob's tapioca starch but i read conflicting info on FTA blog including it causing a much higher BG spike than PS or plantain.

This forum has been a godsend. Thanks to all the esteemed members here. Wish I had found it sooner.
Click to expand...

One guide you may find reliable is the "low blood sugar" symptom. Typically, when people in your situation cut carbs they develop some nausea and an "icky" feeling. This is caused by excessive glucagon and is, in large part, a feature of your impaired metabolism and compromised ability to synthesize glucose from pyruvate. The glucagon response is designed to increase the production of glucose in the liver, and encourage you to eat. Your body will have adapted to readily available glucose, so the withdrawal of this readily available source of carbohydrate can be quite hard on your body. Spread out those carbs throughout the day.

As SCFA synthesis increases, so does pyruvate and the krebs cycle. ATP comes up so does the GSH/GSSG ratio, adrenaline and the stress hormones fall, and your blood sugar will stabilize. You will be better equipped to make your own energy from your stores.
 
Avengers26

Avengers26

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Messages
158
I am definitely feeling lot more fatigued (& lethargic) though it's only moderate compared to when I had gone paleo from a high carb diet. I do have low cortisol & low blood sugar. My blood sugar at 2 hr. mark on the glucose tolerance test, 3 years ago, was in the 30's.

I was doing quite "well" until the recent diet changes but I felt it's important I make long term changes for the better at the cost of short term inconvenience. My H1bA1c had creeped up to 5.5 when I had it tested it 3 months ago (it was 5.2, when I last tested it 3 years ago). I do have decrease in stomach gas/growling since starting RS. My appetite is also less which I do like. I have also lost about 4 lbs in about a month, which I don't mind (not that I am overweight or was planning for it).

There's something interesting I had read about PS in one of the blogs. To describe it crudely, PS helps move the "pathology" further down the gut. I have myself noticed lately that my abdominal cramping is more severe in the lower half than upper half (unlike equally severe in whole abdomen earlier). Take it for N=1 evidence or might be placebo. But, even the overall degree of severity is less.

I will spread my carbs out during the day. Any other suggestions? Thanks & appreciate your replies.
 
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SDSue

SDSue

Southeast
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1,066
Sushi said:
Comment from moderation: The topic of this thread is very broad and, by its nature, relates to many areas of interest. We also have a number of members who want to understand more about RS, prebiotics, etc., but are daunted by the twists and turns this thread takes.

How about this: When posting in the RS thread, directly relate each topic to RS and/or gut, microbiome health etc. This will make the connections much easier to follow. And, if there is something that is interesting, but only tangentially related, post it in another thread with a link back to this thread.

If you have comments or suggestions about the course of this thread or how to keep it readable, please send me a Conversation.

Thanks,
Sushi
Click to expand...
Has anyone boiled this all down to an easy to digest (pun intended) summary of RS? How to use, what to expect, successes vs failures, etc. I'd love to learn more, but am overwhelmed by the length of the thread. Thanks :)
 
Gestalt

Gestalt

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251
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Canada
Vegas said:
A number of fruits, which possess the ability to synthesize chemicals capable of breaking down chitin, are highly allergenic to many people, including kiwi and banana, and these are associated with latex allergies. Latex plants, like these fruits, are also equipped with chitinase capabilities, which, in part, provides anti-fungal defenses.
Click to expand...

I am one of those people allergic to latex, banana and kiwis. I also tried supplementing with plantain flour instead of/in addition to Potato Starch but it always made me feel queasy. Dr.Grace then pointed out to me the plantain-banana-latex connection.

@Vegas I am wondering if you have any theories on why this allergy develops in the first place and perhaps how to cure it? Do you think having this allergy is a sign of a internal fungal issue?

Chitin becomes available for use by humans not only through food sources, but also when the yeast cell walls in our GIT are broken down. Everyone has yeast, but obviously it needs to be held in check. While this occurs through various human derived mechanism like neutrophils, IL-17 T cells, and antimicrobial peptides, there are widely complex host-micorbial interactions that are under exploration. Not unlike the lysate commercial products some on this site have derived benefit from, there is an apparent built in protection against pathological organisms. When commensal organisms die, their cell-walls are used by commensal organisms to stimulate organisms that break the glycosidic bonds in chitin and thus kill more fungal organisms.
Click to expand...

I experienced an extreme example of this when I first tried Candex. My CFS literally went away for 2 weeks as the candex enzymes tore through the fungi in my gut. At first I thought it was relief from removing a ammonia producing invader, however I think the fungi die-off created a massive prebiotic effect which is what was responsible for the feelings of incredible well being in those initial 2 weeks.

After 2 weeks the extreme beneficial fungal die-off prebiotic effect stopped, my CFS returned and Candex gave me severe nausea instead.... likely due to most of the fungi being destroyed.

I have experimented with beta-glucans, and not really had much benefit. I experimented with pure NAG, and it seemed to make the candida come back. I experimented with chaga and that seemed to have helped quite a bit, but mostly through seemingly revving up the immune system.

I quite like seaweed and like the idea of eating trees like larch or xylan. I think diversifying with some more xylans and seaweeds is something I will try next.
 
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