The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Violeta]

Violeta:

I found some Swanson Arabinogalactin for $ $11.99 for a 250 Gram bottle. If you take 20 Grams at a time like Gestalt, that works out to about $ .95 per dose, so it does add up. Shipping makes it even more.

John

John, that is a very good price. I had only looked at iherb and vitamin shoppe. I can only take 1/4 tsp of the other RSs that I take, so that wouldn't be too bad. If it measures like sugar, 1/4 tsp/gr, it would be about 250 servings, so that wouldn't be too bad.

Today I started taking reishi again, it has polysaccharides, beta-glucans. I had started it last fall and had seen an increase in energy and was able to add more food choices to my diet. My anxiety had decreased, too. If it truly is a prebiotic, I don't know why it doesn't cause the problems that PS and glucomannan do. When I don't have to work I can take some of the others.

I was sick all this week with a bad cold, sore throat, and pink eye, but I didn't have to work. I was thinking about two ladies at work that would wash the lunchroom table even when it didn't look dirty before they sat down to eat, and they would brag that they "never get sick." One of them got bladder cancer two years ago and the other one got skin cancer this past year. I'm not saying that washing the table had anything to do with it, that's just why I had heard them say it so many times. Have you ever heard that that happens a lot; people who don't get sick and then get cancer, and say where did that come from? I guess that's because their immune system wasn't working. It's not that important in any way, it's just some sort of rationalization that I am using to not feel bad about being sick over my week long holiday and not getting to visit with my family on Easter.

It's a bumpy road, but I really do consider it necessary.

 

[MeSci]

I am taking a statin

It looks as though statins can exacerbate ME symptoms. This UK page lists adverse effects.

 

[Valentijn]

i wonder if some 'probiotic' strains can be "friendly" to most people, but not so friendly to others, in so much as the immune system is activated for some reason (we know some bacteria are bad for all).

I hate yogurt. Not the flavor, but I just hate eating it and I feel horrible afterward, even when it's non-dairy.

But I'm loving the VSL#3 probiotics. I think they smell and taste great! So maybe I do have a reaction to different probiotics.

I recently tested as having no bifidobacterium in a stool test, prior to starting the VSL#3 - that might be involved some how.

 

[xjhuez]

Talking about anti-microbials, I been wondering if Olive Leaf Extract could be a good choice...

This study even suggest OLE can be prebiotic:

http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin1782.pdf

Interesting.

From the above pdf: The mechanism by which phenolic extracts increased the growth of probiotic bacteria is not known. Molan et al. (2009) presented a possible partial explanation for this enhancing effects is the ability of polyphenols, in green tea extract, to act as antioxidant and antiradical agent to modulate the oxidative stress in the medium generated by the metabolic activities and consequently provide a better environment for the growth and multiplication of these bacteria.

After 16 hours, in milk incubated at 37 degrees C. I wonder if it does the same thing in the gut. Might be worth a shot, as olive leaf extract is fairly inexpensive.

I'm somewhat hesitant, as extracts (ginseng, ginkgo, etc.) give me diarrhea.

 

[Violeta]

I found this at Wikipedia of all places.
Histamine increases the permeability of the capillaries to white blood cells and some proteins, to allow them to engage pathogens in the infected tissues.

Do you think it might be that histamines are the cause of leaky gut and the permeability of the BBB?

 

[MeSci]

I found this at Wikipedia of all places.
Histamine increases the permeability of the capillaries to white blood cells and some proteins, to allow them to engage pathogens in the infected tissues.

Do you think it might be that histamines are the cause of leaky gut and the permeability of the BBB?

That is very interesting. I wonder whether it accounts for the fact that some people get relief from ME symptoms from antihistamines. I find that the sedating ones help with several (muscle tension and nausea, for example) but assumed that it was due to their anticholinergic effects, and maybe it is, but perhaps antihistamines could help treat some of the underlying causes as well.

This page has some good info about histamine too.

 

[Violeta]

That is very interesting. I wonder whether it accounts for the fact that some people get relief from ME symptoms from antihistamines. I find that the sedating ones help with several (muscle tension and nausea, for example) but assumed that it was due to their anticholinergic effects, and maybe it is, but perhaps antihistamines could help treat some of the underlying causes as well.

This page has some good info about histamine too.

When we started talking about the various strains of probiotics, we learned that some of them produce histamines and some degraded histamines. I was thinking this thought was taking the thread off topic, but it just is giving another good reason to be concerned about histamines, and not just from probiotics.

Here's a good link from Kris Kresser:

http://chriskresser.com/how-stress-wreaks-havoc-on-your-gut

Oh, yeah, I wanted to add, avoid stress.....

 

[Vegas]

I hate yogurt. Not the flavor, but I just hate eating it and I feel horrible afterward, even when it's non-dairy.

But I'm loving the VSL#3 probiotics. I think they smell and taste great! So maybe I do have a reaction to different probiotics.

I recently tested as having no bifidobacterium in a stool test, prior to starting the VSL#3 - that might be involved some how.

I think you generally want to avoid Lactobacillus delbrueckii (subspecies bulgaricus), which is used in most yogurt and other Type I Lactobacilli, which would include. L. Acidophilus. Its presences in VSL#3 is cancelled out by an abundance of more suitable organisms.

 

[Vegas]

I found this at Wikipedia of all places.
Histamine increases the permeability of the capillaries to white blood cells and some proteins, to allow them to engage pathogens in the infected tissues.

Do you think it might be that histamines are the cause of leaky gut and the permeability of the BBB?

No not histamine, but another product of nitrogen, peroxynitrite is more likely to be the assailant on the epithelium.

 

[Vegas]

Interesting.

From the above pdf: The mechanism by which phenolic extracts increased the growth of probiotic bacteria is not known. Molan et al. (2009) presented a possible partial explanation for this enhancing effects is the ability of polyphenols, in green tea extract, to act as antioxidant and antiradical agent to modulate the oxidative stress in the medium generated by the metabolic activities and consequently provide a better environment for the growth and multiplication of these bacteria.

After 16 hours, in milk incubated at 37 degrees C. I wonder if it does the same thing in the gut. Might be worth a shot, as olive leaf extract is fairly inexpensive.

I'm somewhat hesitant, as extracts (ginseng, ginkgo, etc.) give me diarrhea.

I really like green tea extract, but I could not tolerate this phenolic compound too well before. Today it generally provides real energy.

I was also thinking about your lack of progress, and think you may benefit from some more efforts to improve the microbial population in the upper bowel.

 

[xjhuez]

I really like green tea extract, but I could not tolerate this phenolic compound too well before. Today it generally provides real energy.

I was also thinking about your lack of progress, and think you may benefit from some more efforts to improve the microbial population in the upper bowel.

I agree. I'm continuing with the PS at 1 tbsp/day, along with plain yogurt + bifidobacterium powder. I may add a tsp of the Barlean's olive leaf juice - undecided at this point. I already drink green tea in the afternoon, but at one cup a day I'm not getting a lot of phenols relative to what an extract would provide.

 

[Vegas]

Violeta, it's still too early for me to tell exactly what's 'healing' but I have felt extra improvement, with brain symptoms especially (I mean those worsened by my response to starch/LPS increase alone) since adding SBOs AOR 3, and Prescript Assist.

I took a closer look at the AOR Clostridial species and see that this organism would readily access potato starch, which of course matches it with its cross-feeding Bifidobacterial partners. It also looks like it is susceptible to a pretty big list of cephalosporins, so I can bet I don't have this particular organism. Any further conclusions concerning this? I'm curious if you have now experienced symptom improvement or exacerbation, specifically the perceived sequelae of immunostimulation.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I took a closer look at the AOR Clostridial species and see that this organism would readily access potato starch, which of course matches it with its cross-feeding Bifidobacterial partners. It also looks like it is susceptible to a pretty big list of cephalosporins, so I can bet I don't have this particular organism. Any further conclusions concerning this? I'm curious if you have now experienced symptom improvement or exacerbation, specifically the perceived sequelae of immunostimulation.

I've worked my potato starch dose up to a full teaspoon every four days and the lymph response at least has been pretty minimal the past couple of weeks. ...Just a mild sensation of congestion (inguinal region again!) lasting an evening once or twice. I've had no increased temperature, swimming head sensation, or the intense fatigue I experienced a couple of months back, but I am feeling some all over 'achiness' lately and mild headaches now and again.
I have a steadier supply of energy than I did pre RS experiment, and improvement in OI symptoms, but the down side is I'm certainly still experiencing die off from something, or several things?! (Detox baths every couple of days, plus occasional clay or charcoal help there.) Sleep is good, but doesn't feel as restorative as it was six months ago. I'm planning on hanging in here with the RS challenge regardless.(I wish there was a shortcut route to dealing with the pathogens though!)
Hopefully not to confuse matters too much -- for the past week I've been taking a teaspoon of green banana flour every morning and a 20 billion capsule of L plantarum. The green banana flour does not seem nearly so stimulating as the potato starch.

I noticed I get an identical positive effect with AOR 3 + a small dose of potato starch as I did in the initial (honeymoon) period with big doses of potato starch alone. AOR 3 has potato starch in it as a prebiotic...that makes sense if they act synergistically. I guess that means I'm taking a very small dose of PS every day in fact! Anyway, I really like the AOR 3. I'm sorry can't tell how exactly it may be helping, but it feels like it is. I did take it for 4 or 5 days before my Prescript Assist arrived so I got a bit of a feel for it. I understand it's an established combination that's been used in Japan for a good while now, so when I get time I'll look into it more.
I'm happy with L plantarum too. I'm having trouble tolerating much Prescript Assist so far though and I'm needing to space it to one cap every few days.


@Sushi I'm curious ~ did you settle on 1 tsp PS per day, or have you increased the amount?

 

[snowathlete]

Heating does matter. If the drying process is above 120ºF—140ºF we would expect a good deal of the RS to turn into glycemic starch.

Response from Rakusen:
Our potato starch is dried at 80DegC for a very short time – any harsher treatment would result in gelatinization of the starch & change its properties completely.
That's 176 F. Too hot. Probably.

 

[Sushi]

@anne_likes_red

I have been sticking with 1 teaspoon a day. I am taking an increasing dose of an antibiotic for Bartonella and I want this to be the only variable for the moment--as it is a powerful variable!

Sushi

 

[Asklipia]

Just one observation which might seem not related to the RS thread but I think there is a link to the gut and I am starting to see this in a new light.
Last year we switched from bottled water to tap water using a filter.
Because the weather can be very hot I always keep a bottle of water next to the bed in case I wake up thirsty.
As long as I was putting this dechlorinated tap water in the plastic bottle which had contained bottled water for sale, it would keep OK for days as the bottled water had.
Then my husband said, maybe we should throw away this plastic bottle and use a metallic flask, all stainless steel, it would be better.
OK, we did that and immediately it became obvious that the dechlorinated tap water would go bad after a couple of days. I thought the metallic bottle had been contaminated in some way and boiled it.
Same problem again.

It could only be : either there is a kind of sterilizing agent in the water sold in bottled water (many brands of mineral water had been used) OR the sterilizing agent is IN THE PLASTIC BOTTLE ITSELF. Most probably the second hypothesis since our tap water would keep OK in a plastic bottle.
If a sterilizing agent were part of the plastic bottle itself, of course there would be no need to declare it on the label of the content, how convenient.

I suspect this because when in Japan I came across milk that had been sold in such a bottle and would kill all my kefir (don't remember the brand). I had complained about this and the lady in the health shop had told me that the bottle not the milk was to blame.

We may have sterilized our gut generously every day we drank from these bottles!

No wonder if this is true that we lost bacteria!

 

[MeSci]

Just one observation which might seem not related to the RS thread but I think there is a link to the gut and I am starting to see this in a new light.
Last year we switched from bottled water to tap water using a filter.
Because the weather can be very hot I always keep a bottle of water next to the bed in case I wake up thirsty.
As long as I was putting this dechlorinated tap water in the plastic bottle which had contained bottled water for sale, it would keep OK for days as the bottled water had.
Then my husband said, maybe we should throw away this plastic bottle and use a metallic flask, all stainless steel, it would be better.
OK, we did that and immediately it became obvious that the dechlorinated tap water would go bad after a couple of days. I thought the metallic bottle had been contaminated in some way and boiled it.
Same problem again.

It could only be : either there is a kind of sterilizing agent in the water sold in bottled water (many brands of mineral water had been used) OR the sterilizing agent is IN THE PLASTIC BOTTLE ITSELF. Most probably the second hypothesis since our tap water would keep OK in a plastic bottle.
If a sterilizing agent were part of the plastic bottle itself, of course there would be no need to declare it on the label of the content, how convenient.

I suspect this because when in Japan I came across milk that had been sold in such a bottle and would kill all my kefir (don't remember the brand). I had complained about this and the lady in the health shop had told me that the bottle not the milk was to blame.

We may have sterilized our gut generously every day we drank from these bottles!

No wonder if this is true that we lost bacteria!

I don't know the situation re sterilising chemicals, but this article says that plastic bottles leach estrogenic chemicals. You may find articles on other leached chemicals in the cited articles or elsewhere on the site.

 

[Violeta]

This study says that LPS affects copper homeostasis, and that is part of the inflammatory process caused by LPS.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23780468
Any thoughts on how to deal with this?

This study says that copper mediates attachment of h pylori to the epithelial cells of the stomach. Do you suppose the same thing could be going on with gram negative bacteria in the gut? Do you think that might be where all those extra copper ions that are involved with LPS in inflammation are coming from?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0079455

 

[bdamir]

Wouldn't be RS4 more indicated for CFS that RS2, because it reduces amount of Firmicutes in favor of Bacteroidetes?
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015046

Also, for those who uses Arabinogalactan. I read that it raises IL-6, isn't that bead thing because Th17 is already overstimulated in CFS?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20796315

 

[Vegas]

Wouldn't be RS4 more indicated for CFS that RS2, because it reduces amount of Firmicutes in favor of Bacteroidetes?
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015046

Also, for those who uses Arabinogalactan. I read that it raises IL-6, isn't that bead thing because Th17 is already overstimulated in CFS?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20796315

Firmicutes vs. Bacteroidetes: I don't think you can draw any real conclusions from looking at phylum/class level taxonomy. Bacteroidetes includes the commensal Bacteroides genus, which includes many commensal species. These are anaerobes, predominantly inhabit the large bowel, and at a species-wide level, are commonly lacking.

High Firmicutes concentration is not necessarily beneficial depending upon the species represented, and I think this often represents an aberrant condition. (Of course super low Firmicutes would be problematic) As for Bacteroidetes, you don't want high Prevotella, but some of the Bacteroides species play important roles.

Don't let the gram-negative status of Bacteroidetes fool you. While there are pathogens in this class, the commensals have a structurally dissimilar cell wall that is comprised of special lipids that mitigate the effect of the lipopolysaccharide comprised in their cell walls. I know this is confusing.

Arabinogalactan: As for the IL-6, I think you are going to have a very difficult time finding consistent picture when you look at cytokines. IL-6 also exerts anti-inflammatory effects in peripheral tissues. The fact that a compound can raise or inhibit these measures requires very careful analysis.