The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Vegas]

Ah, you must be a rat then.

That explains a lot, I must have been a lab rat at some time.

 

[Vegas]

Would you think it could trigger a autoimmune condition?

"excessive immune response" That was a poor choice of words on my part. The immune response is not likely excessive, it is appropriate for the stimulus. I intended to convey only that it would produce symptoms in excess of what many would consider tolerable. As to your question about triggering an autoimmune condition, I think it would be a bit presumptuous for me to think I could answer that, but with that caveat, I think that is possible but unlikely.

 

[Vegas]

How much should I reduce it to, do you think? If it's doing great things I don't want to stop it and allow possible pathogens any breathing room to regroup, but obviously I don't want to let things get out of control.

There are so many potential variables making this a difficul question to answer. Also my experiences with RS are fairly limited. I wish i could be more helpful. I do understand your concern about wanting to maintain the conditions and I think this has some merit, but my cumulative experience, at least with lots of modifying organisms, has suggested that you are not going to suffer any adverse effects from slowing tor stopping he process. I'm simply trying help others avert mistakes I have already made, and unfortunately continue to make. If you have been ill for an extended period of time and are now experiencing the symptoms you reported, I believe there is some concern you may eventually experience some additional adverse symptoms. I may just be looking at this myopically, which I tend to do sometime when I see something familiar.

 

[Vegas]

Do you think kombucha is okay? I crave it sometimes, but I thought all those different strains weren't good.

Well I'm not in the business of recommending something as generic as kombucha since this can be prepared with different organisms and it does happen to be one of those things that multiple people have told me made them feel very ill; I think there are a number of possible explanations for this. I was simply relating my personal experiences, which have been favorable. If you crave it, it is probably (but not necessarily) fine for you; and I don't see any problem with the typical organisms used.

 

[Vegas]

It does that to me as well. Its the same feeling l get from cilantro, mercury being chelated.

Interestingly, while cilantro is a metal chelator, and quite a few people experience what you did when taking it, corriander has other properties that may be responsible for this. It is loaded with volatile aromatic compounds. These can make me feel really bad, lots of brain fog, headaches. Are there other things that make you feel this way?

I came to this conclusion (duh) after 6000 doses of Lipoic Acid, yet the cilantro reaction persisted. Not nearly as bad, but it left me challenging the Hg mobilization explanation. Especially when this reaction paralleled the other category pf comp, which I believe is a pathway compromised in many with ME/CFS.

 

[Vegas]

Or the Kombucha could be just plain toxic carrying mycotoxins or it also could have leached lead from it's stored containers/manufacturing process adding to your personal toxic load. http://www.livestrong.com/article/134737-dangers-kombucha/

My gf drank it once, and shortly after got a massive yeast infection, lesson learned, never drink again.

My nutrigenomcis doc was also really against the stuff and said it had super high levels of free form glutamates that can quickly lead to acute excitotoxicity.

:Leaded containers, are these really still around?

Yes, it certainly causes adverse reactions with some, this I cannot deny As for the claim that it is high in glutamates, this is probably true because yeasts commonly do produce this, but I think you have to look at the whole food/beverage, especially when you are talking about incorporating living organisms.

This illustrates that concept I keep talking about. The duality in nature: the yin and yang. I will have to post a list for you some time that is more comprehensive; actually a graph would probably produce striking linear results to the extent I could quantify this, but some examples: Parmesan cheese is about as high in glutamate as any food, yet it is made with organisms that synthesize GABA, L. Rhamnosus.

The foods highest in acetaldehyde are strongly positively correlated to bifidogenicity. Purine alkaloids and nightshades are strongly positively correlated to foods which are highly bifidogenic. There is an obvious correlation wherein potentially dangerous foods have compounds that benefit our microbiota. If was in part, the toxicity of certain foods, and their collateral ability to nurture the microbiota of the infant with great efficiency that may me realize that clostridal and bifidobacterial strains may have a role here.

It's not just the association but the strength of if that surprised me. Kumbucha, well that has acetic acid, usually S. Boulardi, and EGCG, which are bifidogenic directly or indirectly. It all just seems to make so much sense to me, but maybe I have RS on the brain.

 

[Vegas]

I'll leave the medical questions to @Vegas but I wonder why people have this idea that lactic acid producing bacteria is better/safer than SBOs? Aren't lactic acid bacteria the kind that contribute to SIBO? And don't they tend to just get chewed up by stomach acids? And aren't they really difficult to change the numbers of via probiotics? I kind of feel like they are just old-school probiotics that don't do all that much (other than reduce acute diarrhea). Most people don't get enough SBOs — which are normally found in healthy guts — since most people live an overly hygienic lifestyle.

I wrote up something on this subject over the weekend for @adreno who asked about this subject more generally, but I'm too tired to re-create this for now. couple of things.

You can see that I am not a fan of particular category of fermentation, homolactic, which includes Acidophilus. I have read a number of studies that established that this particular organism caused some adverse metabolic consequences, that were unexpected to the authors. It's not a pathogen and generally demonstrates benefits to the host, yet I think it can cause problems for some.

Yes, some LAB do have the potential to make matters worse, but I don't think you can generalize across the genus. I find the LAB I take, very helpful. I do, however, ferment these myself. In this regard, I think strict obligative fermenters are probably the safest bet.

The fermentation method has a number of implications, including the production of acetate vs. lactate...although there is only so much generalization that can be made with this as well.

There is considerable intergenus and interspecies diversity. More than you might think.

I think SBO's are likely a good fit for most. I haven't seen more than a few personal accounts of problems with these, yet I know there are always exceptions. I disagree with Natren's assertion that they are harmful as I have seen no evidence to support this contention, yet I use her probiotics for innoculating yogurt. I have taken them myself, and originally sought out SBO's because I was looking for a denitrifican species. Only Prescript Assist contained such a species. In this case a cyanobacterial strain that also synthesized B12. So SBO's can positively affect the nitrogen balance they also are extremely hearty, particularly in their ability to thrive in an alkaline environment, like in alkaline colon many here maintain. These, as I see it, are the real benefits of these organisms, in this condition. must get sleep.

 

[brenda]

Interestingly, while cilantro is a metal chelator, and quite a few people experience what you did when taking it, corriander has other properties that may be responsible for this. It is loaded with volatile aromatic compounds. These can make me feel really bad, lots of brain fog, headaches. Are there other things that make you feel this way?

I came to this conclusion (duh) after 6000 doses of Lipoic Acid, yet the cilantro reaction persisted. Not nearly as bad, but it left me challenging the Hg mobilization explanation. Especially when this reaction paralleled the other category pf comp, which I believe is a pathway compromised in many with ME/CFS.

I get the same reaction when I am herxing (Lyme). It is at the base of my skull extending out from it and is unmistakable and very unpleasant.

 

[MeSci]

I'll leave the medical questions to @Vegas but I wonder why people have this idea that lactic acid producing bacteria is better/safer than SBOs? Aren't lactic acid bacteria the kind that contribute to SIBO? And don't they tend to just get chewed up by stomach acids? And aren't they really difficult to change the numbers of via probiotics? I kind of feel like they are just old-school probiotics that don't do all that much (other than reduce acute diarrhea). Most people don't get enough SBOs — which are normally found in healthy guts — since most people live an overly hygienic lifestyle.

Maybe I can stop worrying that I don't usually wash my hands after gardening then!

BTW I did a quick search on Lactobacillus and SIBO and found this interesting paper.

 

[Vegas]

I get the same reaction when I am herxing (Lyme). It is at the base of my skull extending out from it and is unmistakable and very unpleasant.

When my immune system started "awakening" I experienced lots of lymphatic activity at the base of the neck. Perhaps because of the rich blood supply in the head and the importance of maintaining a robust lymphatic system here, but I have observed that this is often the first to be engaged.

For me, another sign of a shift towards immunocompetency has been mouth sores. I think I've had about a dozen of these outbreaks in the last 4 years and this typically corresponds to energy increases and by extension shifts toward immune competency. This actually happened to me last week, for the first time since RS, but it was a fairly significant one, as I had a bunch of these sores inside the mouth develop. Some B2 and methyltetrahyrofolate resolves this pretty quickly. I think this has to do with the replication of DNA. Anyway these mouth sores have become very predictable. Do you ever get these?.

 

[brenda]

When my immune system started "awakening" I experienced lots of lymphatic activity at the base of the neck. Perhaps because of the rich blood supply in the head and the importance of maintaining a robust lymphatic system here, but I have observed that this is often the first to be engaged.

For me, another sign of a shift towards immunocompetency has been mouth sores. I think I've had about a dozen of these outbreaks in the last 4 years and this typically corresponds to energy increases and by extension shifts toward immune competency. This actually happened to me last week, for the first time since RS, but it was a fairly significant one, as I had a bunch of these sores inside the mouth develop. Some B2 and methyltetrahyrofolate resolves this pretty quickly. I think this has to do with the replication of DNA. Anyway these mouth sores have become very predictable. Do you ever get these?.

No I do not get mouth sores at all.

 

[finalgates]

i have started RS five days ago.4TBS a day with some bifido and lactocabillus probiotics.my gout is worse now.is ti because of candida die off and uric acid going in the blood?or it feeds candida?

 

[adreno]

@Vegas

You mean herpes or canker sores? I do get sores on the roof of my mouth (hard palate), I read they can only be herpes there.

 

[Vegas]

Maybe I can stop worrying that I don't usually wash my hands after gardening then!

BTW I did a quick search on Lactobacillus and SIBO and found this interesting paper.

Should be required reading.

@Vegas

You mean herpes or canker sores? I do get sores on the roof of my mouth (hard palate), I read they can only be herpes there.

I am referring to what is commonly called a "canker sore," These, at least those I experience, are not on the pallate, but primarily under the tongue, sublingual & gums.

 

[Violeta]

i have started RS five days ago.4TBS a day with some bifido and lactocabillus probiotics.my gout is worse now.is ti because of candida die off and uric acid going in the blood?or it feeds candida?

I was actually just thinking about an hour ago about something pertaining to this because of a pain that I got on the side of my foot about 10 minutes after taking 1/2 of a Primal Defense SBO. I was thinking that the RS and probiotic cause die off of bacteria, endotoxin release, and since the gut is leaky the LPS gets into the bloodstream. Then it is precipitated in your own special area. The books about gout by Alexander Haig that I read several years ago when I woke up one morning with severe joint and tendon pain describe it as a sieve type action. Where there is some sort of deposit, more gets deposited. It especially gets deposited if the pH of the blood can't keep it in solution. My particular spot for sharp pain is in my left foot where I had a callus from a shoe that didn't fit right many years ago. I did have pain in the joint of my big toe about a week ago, and yesterday I had it in my knees.

Edit in: Alexander Haig's books are from cerca 1900, so when he did autopsies he found uric acid deposits, but didn't have the capability to find macrophages or LPS, so that wasn't taken into consideration.

Since reading here I'm not sure right now where the uric acid fits in, but maybe someone else can clear that up.
I did see an article explaining the connection between gout and LPS. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[MeSci]

No I do not get mouth sores at all.

I have had a few recently, and also a wart that I used to have on a finger for years, but had disappeared, grows and shrinks a bit again. The mouth sores last a few days, then disappear again. I also get transient sore spots on my tongue. I am hoping that all these are signs that immune hyperactivity is dying down, and that my immune system will re-learn/is re-learning what to attack and what to leave alone.

 

[MeSci]

Should be required reading.


I am referring to what is commonly called a "canker sore," These, at least those I experience, are not on the pallate, but primarily under the tongue, sublingual & gums.

I'm also getting occasional small 'cold sores' on my mouth.

 

[Violeta]

Maybe I can stop worrying that I don't usually wash my hands after gardening then!

BTW I did a quick search on Lactobacillus and SIBO and found this interesting paper.

That is a good paper. It makes me think I should try some strategies for some of the SIBO causes.

 

[Ripley]

So SBO's can positively affect the nitrogen balance they also are extremely hearty, particularly in their ability to thrive in an alkaline environment, like in alkaline colon many here maintain. These, as I see it, are the real benefits of these organisms, in this condition. must get sleep.

Sorry, but why would anyone want to maintain an alkaline colon? I assume you mean people are inadvertently maintaining their colon alkaline in an undesirable way — by not eating enough fermentable fibers. The more fermentation that happens (a good thing), the more acidic the colon becomes.

The paradox of eating more alkaline foods is that many alkaline foods get fermented into SCFAs, which makes the colon more acidic. And that's considered to be a good thing since an acidic gut makes the gut environment inhospitable to pathogens and switches pathogens into benign organisms.

 

[Violeta]

Sorry, but why would anyone want to maintain an alkaline colon? I assume you mean people are inadvertently maintaining their colon alkaline in an undesirable way — by not eating enough fermentable fibers. The more fermentation that happens (a good thing), the more acidic the colon becomes.

The paradox of eating more alkaline foods is that many alkaline foods get fermented into SCFAs, which makes the colon more acidic. And that's considered to be a good thing since an acidic gut makes the gut environment inhospitable to pathogens and switches pathogens into benign organisms.

I don't think he means that they want an alkaline colon, just that their colon is alkaline, Ripley, believe it or not.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)