The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[jepps]

Chris Kresser about the best moment, when to take probiotics, RS and fibres:
http://chriskresser.com/ask-the-rd-probiotic-timing-and-the-blood-type-diet

research has shown that probiotics are better absorbed, either about 30 minutes before a meal, or with meals. So ones that I looked at used a multi-strain product and used an in-vitro model of the digestive system and compared different timings of meals and different meal types to the survival of the probiotics through the GI-tract. And what they found, was that the survival of the probiotics, like I said, was best about 30 minutes before or with the meal. And there were less bacteria that survived if the probiotics were given 30 minutes after the meal. They also compared the probiotic survival to which meal the digestive simulator was given, and the options were apple juice, water, or oatmeal with 1% milk. And what they found was that the survival was significantly better with the oatmeal and the authors actually related that to the fat content, but I think that it’s also important to note that oatmeal has some fiber and resistant starch, which would have helped survival as well. So, I think that’s important to think about when we’re deciding when to take our probiotics.

In a study on rats they tested a few different strains of probiotics and the effect of different prebiotics on their survival and found that the different prebiotics actually helped different strains survive better, so some particular strains of probiotics did better with FOS, which is fructo-oligo-saccharide, some did better with inulin, etc.

So according to research the best timing for probiotics, RS and fibres were, to take it all together 30 min. before a meal, and various fibres support various probiotic-strains.

 

[Sasha]

I read a post somewhere saying that the bacteria in Prescript Assist aren't ones normally found in the human digestive tract but according to PA's product description, 'Prescript-Assist® (P-A) is a next-generation combination of 29 probiotic microflora "Soil-Based-Organisms (SBOs)" uniquely combined with a humic/fulvic acid prebiotic that enhances SBO proliferation. Prescript-Assist's® microflora are Class-1 micro ecological units that are typical of those progressively found resident along the healthy human GI Tract.'

Anybody know what's what?

Also, anybody know whether PA is supposed to (or should) help with SIBO or GERD?

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Sasha Am liking your above post b/c I am hoping someone else will respond (since I want the answers to your questions, too!) I am feeling a lot better since re-starting Midodrine and adding Prescript Assist and I feel that the combination is helping me but can't explain how they might work together so well.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Yes, your gut health has profound effects on your autonomic nervous system. People keep getting shocked how important the gut is to their health.

@adreno I keep hearing how 80% of our immunity is from the gut, and my ME specialist really wants me to do the SIBO test, and I knew leaky gut could be related to histamine and all kinds of issues. But I did not know that gut issues could affect your autonomic system (which I thought was purely regulated by the brain.) This thread has been very educational for me. How does gut health affect autonomic issues like BP & HR? I have had profound affects like you said and want to understand them better.

With regard to inflammation, perhaps we can say that it is a necessary evil, rather than something to specifically strive for. It is simply necessary for the immune system to do its job. It is unlikely that we will see improvements in immune function and pathogen load without some accompanying inflammation, however unpleasant it might be.

I have another stupid question which is how would you know if the probiotic is causing you inflammation? I understand obvious inflammation like when the pinched nerve in my neck caused severe inflammation in my shoulder and arm. But other than obvious swelling and pain, what would be other signs?

@Gingergrrl I take Prescript Assist and fibres since more than a year now, but I have the definitive changing in blood pressure and heart rate since taking the full RS + fibres. I had a heart rate of 100-120 in the morning and a blood pressure of 80/140, since Prescript Assist+RS+fibres I have a heart rate of 70-85 and a blood pressure of 80/120.

@jepps that is great news! I have not had a single episode of tachycardia (awake or asleep) in several weeks and eliminated my AM dose of Atenolol b/c I no longer need it (but still take the PM dose.) In my case, my BP was super low and since the Prescript Assist, it is getting higher.

I know I am also trying Midodrine again and that this is the main cause but I tried Midodrine in the past and it never worked this well so there has to be another factor that is helping it along and I feel it is the Prescript Assist b/c I can't think what else it could be!

 

[Sidereal]

I read a post somewhere saying that the bacteria in Prescript Assist aren't ones normally found in the human digestive tract but according to PA's product description, 'Prescript-Assist® (P-A) is a next-generation combination of 29 probiotic microflora "Soil-Based-Organisms (SBOs)" uniquely combined with a humic/fulvic acid prebiotic that enhances SBO proliferation. Prescript-Assist's® microflora are Class-1 micro ecological units that are typical of those progressively found resident along the healthy human GI Tract.'

Anybody know what's what?

Also, anybody know whether PA is supposed to (or should) help with SIBO or GERD?

This has already been discussed a great deal. Here's Ripley's post from page 2 to get you started:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...eve-been-looking-for.26976/page-2#post-419741

Yes, SBOs are recommended for people with SIBO because LAB probiotics tend to make it worse.

Everything you swallow carries a risk. No one can assure you that anything discussed here is 100% safe.

 

[adreno]

@adreno I keep hearing how 80% of our immunity is from the gut, and my ME specialist really wants me to do the SIBO test, and I knew leaky gut could be related to histamine and all kinds of issues. But I did not know that gut issues could affect your autonomic system (which I thought was purely regulated by the brain.) This thread has been very educational for me. How does gut health affect autonomic issues like BP & HR? I have had profound affects like you said and want to understand them better.

The gut is as you say heavily involved with regulating the immune system, which has profound influence on the brain and nervous system. There are also more direct effects from the production of hormones and neurotransmitters. Just know that the whole system is interconnected. The brain doesn't work in a vacuum.

I have another stupid question which is how would you know if the probiotic is causing you inflammation? I understand obvious inflammation like when the pinched nerve in my neck caused severe inflammation in my shoulder and arm. But other than obvious swelling and pain, what would be other signs?

Increased immune activation, like having a cold, etc.

 

[Sasha]

This has already been discussed a great deal. Here's Ripley's post from page 2 to get you started:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...eve-been-looking-for.26976/page-2#post-419741

Yes, SBOs are recommended for people with SIBO because LAB probiotics tend to make it worse.

Everything you swallow carries a risk. No one can assure you that anything discussed here is 100% safe.

Thanks, Sidereal - you're a mine of info, as ever!

So the thing with SBOs for SIBO isn't that they improve it, necessarily, but that they don't make it worse?

 

[adreno]

So the thing with SBOs for SIBO isn't that they improve it, necessarily, but that they don't make it worse?

Does anybody really know what causes SIBO, and how to treat it? Seems to me there are more questions than answers. I must admit I'm a bit skeptical of the whole thing. As I see it, there is simply gut dysbiosis, and that's it. So yes, I think SBOs might actually help.

 

[Sidereal]

Thanks, Sidereal - you're a mine of info, as ever!

So the thing with SBOs for SIBO isn't that they improve it, necessarily, but that they don't make it worse?

I do think SBOs could help with dysbiosis.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Can these probiotics cause a feeling of indigestion? If so, is this bad? It feels similar to when I attempted fish oil and trying to figure out the cause. Sorry if this has already been discussed?

 

[Sasha]

Does anybody really know what causes SIBO, and how to treat it? Seems to me there are more questions than answers. I must admit I'm a bit skeptical of the whole thing. As I see it, there is simply gut dysbiosis, and that's it. So yes, I think SBOs might actually help.

I'd love it if it wasn't true - I don't know what objective testing has been done to back up the hypothesis.

 

[Sidereal]

Can these probiotics cause a feeling of indigestion? If so, is this bad?

Yes, all these probiotics and prebiotics can cause indigestion and other GI symptoms due to inflammation. If the symptoms are too much to tolerate, you might find that taking stuff every second or third day is more tolerable, or cutting down on the dose and taking microscopic doses daily.

 

[Sasha]

@Gingergrrl - I haven't had indigestion as a symptom but rather migraine headaches, both with VSL#3 and Prescript Assist. At lower doses, I didn't have the migraines.

 

[Sidereal]

@Gingergrrl - I haven't had indigestion as a symptom but rather migraine headaches, both with VSL#3 and Prescript Assist. At lower doses, I didn't have the migraines.

I get sinus headaches from Miyarisan and Prescript Assist if I take too much.

 

[Sasha]

@Sidereal - you mentioned that VSL#3 was probably bad for many PWME because of lactobacillus (producing lactate?). I think that it might have improved my OI but left me more tired (maybe the bifido improved my OI and the lacto made me more tired!).

Prescript Assist has this lot:

Arthrobacter agilis, Arthrobacter citreus, Arthrobacter globiformis, Arthrobacter luteus, Arthrobacter simplex, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azospirillum brasiliense, Azospirillum lipoferum, Bacillus brevis, Bacillus marcerans, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus subtilis, Bacteroides lipolyticum, Bacteriodes succinogenes, Brevibacterium lipolyticum, Brevibacterium stationis, Kurthia zopfii, Myrothecium verrucaria, Pseudomonas calcis, Pseudomonas dentrificans, Pseudomonas fluorescens, Pseudomonas glathei, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, Streptomyces fradiae, Streptomyces cellulosae, Streptomyces griseoflavus.​

...so no lactobacillus. Does that mean there are no lactate-producing bugs in there?

I see there are no bifido either. Now that I'm off VSL#3, I wonder if I ought to be looking at some?

 

[Gingergrrl]

Thank you @Sidereal and @Sasha. I am actually taking PA every other day (alternating with S. Boulaardi) and not tried the prebiotic stuff. I do not get migraines so this is not an issue for me and have never tried VSL3 (?)

Am frustrated today b/c my BP is in the 80's before and after Midodrine and having this indigestion feeling and not able to eat anything. But I had several good days in a row. I still can't quite figure this all out!

 

[Sidereal]

@Sidereal - you mentioned that VSL#3 was probably bad for many PWME because of lactobacillus (producing lactate?). I think that it might have improved my OI but left me more tired (maybe the bifido improved my OI and the lacto made me more tired!).

Prescript Assist has this lot:

Arthrobacter agilis, Arthrobacter citreus, Arthrobacter globiformis, Arthrobacter luteus, Arthrobacter simplex, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azospirillum brasiliense, Azospirillum lipoferum, Bacillus brevis, Bacillus marcerans, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus subtilis, Bacteroides lipolyticum, Bacteriodes succinogenes, Brevibacterium lipolyticum, Brevibacterium stationis, Kurthia zopfii, Myrothecium verrucaria, Pseudomonas calcis, Pseudomonas dentrificans, Pseudomonas fluorescens, Pseudomonas glathei, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, Streptomyces fradiae, Streptomyces cellulosae, Streptomyces griseoflavus.​

...so no lactobacillus. Does that mean there are no lactate-producing bugs in there?

I see there are no bifido either. Now that I'm off VSL#3, I wonder if I ought to be looking at some?

Right, that is why this probiotic is recommended for those who can't tolerate LAB.

If VSL3 helped you, I don't see why you wouldn't try it again. Bifidobacteria produce lactate too, btw.

You could always try getting single species products for bifidos and see how you do with those? I've used Align for B. infantis and Life Extension Bifido GI Balance product for B. longum. Personally I've found these extremely inflammatory and much more than I could handle.

@Vegas has written about this problem with bifidos in ME/CFS patients, buried somewhere in this thread. Great for the general population, too harsh for many of us.

 

[Sidereal]

Thank you @Sidereal and @Sasha. I am actually taking PA every other day (alternating with S. Boulaardi) and not tried the prebiotic stuff. I do not get migraines so this is not an issue for me and have never tried VSL3 (?)

Am frustrated today b/c my BP is in the 80's before and after Midodrine and having this indigestion feeling and not able to eat anything. But I had several good days in a row. I still can't quite figure this all out!

Hypotension may be a sign of bacterial die-off. It's confusing because your immune response after taking these probiotics will tend to build up over time so you can end up with a couple of days honeymoon period before you get slammed with inflammation, seemingly out of nowhere. Other times there can be inflammation right from the start so it can be hard to tell what's going on sometimes.

 

[Sasha]

Thank you @Sidereal and @Sasha. I am actually taking PA every other day (alternating with S. Boulaardi) and not tried the prebiotic stuff. I do not get migraines so this is not an issue for me and have never tried VSL3 (?)

Am frustrated today b/c my BP is in the 80's before and after Midodrine and having this indigestion feeling and not able to eat anything. But I had several good days in a row. I still can't quite figure this all out!

Sorry, I was a bit vague with how my thing related to your thing - I was trying to say that you might not get bad symptoms at a lower dose.

 

[Sasha]

Right, that is why this probiotic is recommended for those who can't tolerate LAB.

If VSL3 helped you, I don't see why you wouldn't try it again. Bifidobacteria produce lactate too, btw.

You could always try getting single species products for bifidos and see how you do with those? I've used Align for B. infantis and Life Extension Bifido GI Balance product for B. longum. Personally I've found these extremely inflammatory and much more than I could handle.

@Vegas has written about this problem with bifidos in ME/CFS patients, buried somewhere in this thread. Great for the general population, too harsh for many of us.

I didn't realise bifido produce lactate too...

VSL3 helped me with my OI (I think - something did, and it's the most likely) but something has been making me so knackered that overall, I haven't improved functionally - which I think might also have been the VSL3.

I'll have a go with PA and see what that does.