The Lightening Process. Does it work? If so then how?

[Valentijn]

Am I still a part of the Canadian census criteria if I have fatigue while and after activity but not PEM? I have other symptoms on the list as well like pain and cognitive problems, quite severe muscle problems etc.

If you're having severe muscle problems, pain, and cognitive problems, that effectively rules out Oxford CFS and very strongly implicates a physical illness. So LP still won't help.

If you're really not sure and have some cash to spend, I'd highly recommend seeing a real ME/CFS expert. They can give an opinion about your diagnosis, and they're going to be a lot better at differential diagnosis than the typical NHS "chronic fatigue" stooge.

A first appointment with Dr de Meirleir is something like 60 or 80 euros. Testing is much more expensive (around 3,000 euros) but certainly not obligatory and could help quite a bit in finding a proper diagnosis. He also does a 1 day CPET, which is a very good way to document definite disability. A 2 day CPET might be something you could request, if you want a definitive answer as to whether or not you have ME with PEM. I think that one was about 100 euros for one test.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Delusions of grandeur?

HEY!!! No fair! It's bloody cold up here in Scotland as you know! Would turn Ron Jeremy into Ron Weasly

That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it... and the bloody Dyson...ger off me, ya damn vacuum machine...

*tugs frantically, suffering from Post Suction Machine*

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Kenneth Williams on the Wessely school of psychiatry:

Classic!
he was a bloody riot

 

[peggy-sue]

Silverblade, you have made my day. That has had me in fits of giggles, I've almost fallen off my chair and I will be giggling for the rest of the day too.
It even beats the christmas tree biscuit box I bought from a charity shop yesterday - which plays "Deck the halls" completely out of tune - it's gone into a minor key full of wrong notes and is every bit as good as Les Dawson or Victor Borge at "playing badly". I wish I could let you all hear it, it is just hysterical.
(I like silly noisy toys. Michael doesn't. And he doesn't like it when I set them all off in shops either.)

 

[peggy-sue]

Please @Ambrosia_angel pay far more attention to Kina and Valentijn than me!
I don't know too much about all the differences in criteria, I have short term memory problems that mean I can't contrast and compare lists of things.
There is a dearth of information about lyme in the UK, testing is very unreliable, even if you can convince somebody to test you for it.
I would imagine my friend who really had heart failure, but was given a CFS diagnosis, might well have been harmed by something like this.
I was making the stupid assumption that CFS was not being used as a label for something else serious if it doesn't include PEM.

Sorry!

 

[Ambrosia_angel]

Has anybody considered a diagnosis of fibromyalgia or Lyme for you @Ambrosia_angel ?

I saw a Dr recently and we came to a joint conclusion that I don't have fibro. I don't get pressure points and my pain is aggravated by activity. I don't know if they tested me for Lyme but I live in an urban area so that wasn't ever suggested..

 

[Ambrosia_angel]

If you're having severe muscle problems, pain, and cognitive problems, that effectively rules out Oxford CFS and very strongly implicates a physical illness. So LP still won't help.

If you're really not sure and have some cash to spend, I'd highly recommend seeing a real ME/CFS expert. They can give an opinion about your diagnosis, and they're going to be a lot better at differential diagnosis than the typical NHS "chronic fatigue" stooge.

A first appointment with Dr de Meirleir is something like 60 or 80 euros. Testing is much more expensive (around 3,000 euros) but certainly not obligatory and could help quite a bit in finding a proper diagnosis. He also does a 1 day CPET, which is a very good way to document definite disability. A 2 day CPET might be something you could request, if you want a definitive answer as to whether or not you have ME with PEM. I think that one was about 100 euros for one test.

Do you know any cfs drs in the UK? I can't find any that are willing to go against nice guidelines. I can only find Dr myhill and she is overly subscribed and quite far from where I am. I don't have any savings to spend sadly. I don't think I'd be able to survive a trip abroad either.

 

[peggy-sue]

Even up here in Scotland, where we are NOT bound by NICE guidelines, but have our own Good Practice Guidelines, gps still have the option of choosing to use them.

The first draught of the guidelines said to use NICE criteria to diagnose CFS, but the Canadian Guidelines to diagnose ME.

But the guidelines had to be approved by AfME, who watered it all down and held up publication for over a year.
So now, gps who can't be ar**ed reading the guidelines just use NICE, and leave us to rot. It's less of a drain on their finances to carry on refusing to do tests and treat us with no more than contempt.

Dr. Myhill is very unusual in standing up for us against NICE.

 

[Calathea]

Has the LP ever been used to help with addiction?
I have been thinking quite a lot about what it could be good for, and it struck me it might help alcoholism.
Being a non-practising alcoholic myself, I do think it might have been helpful.

All addicts need a "damascus moment" where they change their beliefs (to understanding/believing the drug is actually doing them harm) and I do think LP could be a reinforcing sort of thing.

Yeesh, that could be dangerous. My ex's father very nearly died when his alcoholism got so bad that he was bedbound, and his bloody parents, who were supposedly looking after him, let him lie there, doubly incontinent, not getting any food, and most importantly, not getting any alcohol. Suddenly stopping alcohol can kill you. It very nearly killed him, it was horribly close, and he had dementia for a while when he was in hospital going through withdrawal (aged 48 or thereabouts, though he looked 70). He's lucky he didn't get permanent massive brain damage.

The thing that really frustrate me about LP-type approaches to ME is that they assume we're making ourselves worse by not doing enough, and need to be pushed by someone else, or trained into pushing ourselves harder. Every single person with ME I have ever known is constantly pushing their limits, overdoing it on a regular basis, and being encouraged in this by the general public and most doctors. Every single one. I did hear of one guy who took to his bed for two years as soon as he got diagnosed (lucky him, having a family who was happy to look after him like that), but you know what? He then recovered.

I'm not in favour of lying to anyone in order to help them. I'm definitely not in favour of teaching people ways to override their instincts and inflict harm on themselves. And if the process is a scam where some medical conditions are concerned, then I don't think that makes it likely to help others. It just makes it a scam.

 

[peggy-sue]

Ye gods, I do know about the sudden withdrawal thing - I was more referring to it being used instead of rehab - but not until after withdrawal.
I'd managed to cut down and reduce for a while, I stopped completely for 11 days before going in to rehab.

My mother died from total organ failure caused by chronic alcoholism. I know how bad that room smelled for months afterwards.

Those who went on last minute benders just wasted their time in rehab, they spent the whole time going through withdrawal, but at least they did get medical help for it.
However, the lectures didn't really do much good - most therapy came from being with the other patients.
I have been desperately trying to think of something LP might be ok for, and wondered if it might be useful for the business of staying sober.

Having a little ritual to perform might be useful for dealing with urges.
Alternatively, I suppose, they could just use a rubber band on their wrist to ping, but a ritual that took longer might be more effective at distraction and not letting the urge get hold.

 

[Tristen]

This thread must take the award for most replies within the first week. We just don't have any tolerance for the lies that perpetrate the fallacy that the disease is psych, or can be healed with psych exercises. I guess LPS may help ones perception of their illness, and therefore improve coping ability.....but having an effect on the physical aspect of the disease is BS. It's also very dangerous with this disease to push oneself too much, and this kind of mental exercise may easily cause one to do so. In my view, LPS curing me/cfs is ridiculous, insulting, and dangerous. My limited understanding of LPS has been that it's just a glorified form CBT.

I've always been a very positive person, even to a fault, always believing that I could overcome or transcend most anything. I must have a glitch in my head because even after 20 years with mod-severe me/cfs, I still to this day believe that I will fully recover (and I will). Can't get any stronger positive thinking than what goes on in my head......Yet the disease has relentlessly progressed. I would have improved, recovered, or even just arrested disease progression long ago if positive thinking had any impact.....but nope. Big gun drugs and treatments for a physical disease is all that has brought any measure of relief........and that relief has been significant.

 

[Undisclosed]

Ambrosia - it's only a problem in that part of the CFS/ME community which refuses to acknowledge any success the LP has had in treating the condition. Those of us who have tried it are no longer a part of that community because we are no longer sufferers.

We don't acknowledge that LP has cured people with ME, because it hasn't. You can't apply what is basically a psychological therapy to cure a physical illness. If you could, it would work for all diseases, not just ME. Why are you here then if you are no longer a sufferer?

So how about a completely uncensored version of how it HAS helped someone - well 3 people actually. Since I was last on this site I have been on the LP and would like to report what happened. Let's start with me - diagnosed (and for the pedants amongst us, that's diagnosed by the NHS) about 4 years ago - couldn't exercise one bit, would crash with severe flu-like symptoms if I did. Massive amounts of muscle pain, brain-fog, etc. Did the LP in January 2014 with an experienced practitioner (here are some of the testimonials of those she has helped http://www.kathykent.co.uk/testimonials.html). Got home after the course and began pumping iron 3 times a week, plus interval training, golf - no ill effects. This isn't hearsay and anecdote by the way, this is fact. The second person I have described before on this site, again what I am about to say is fact not anecdote. She is a colleague who I have worked closely with throughout her illness (extremely bad CFS/ME) for 5 years. Did the process and was cured, pretty much overnight - she is the Linda you see on the Kathy Kent testimonial page.The third person is more anecdotal since I don't know him that well, but it's Linda's husband - he suffered dreadful chronic pain from a serious neck injury from a ladder fall from over 15 years. On returning from doing LP he signed himself off disability benefit and started his first proper job in 15 years yesterday as it happens.

This is all anecdotal bolstered by more anecdotes from a person who sells LP. It is actually 'hearsay and anecdote' by the way. How about providing us with some before and after lab results, or some proof.

So, what are we to conclude - that all 3 of us are deluded, soft-headed, or liars, or charlatans? I don't give a fig if Phil Parker makes money out of selling LP - I have no vested interest myself, since I am not a practitioner. I am not promoting LP for any financial gain - my agenda is to pass on what has happened to me and 2 other people.

You seem to have some kind of vested interest because you came to Phoenix Rising and your first and every post after was about LP. You started in on the LP posts prior to doing the program. To me this seems very odd.

But what is the agenda of the people responding to your thread? Are they seekers of the truth, warning folk off spending their hard earned cash on chicanery and voodoo? Because if they are, they are misleading every single person who visits this website desperate for help - I mean to say, who, having read the replies to your original post, would go near LP or touch it with a bargepole? And the crying shame is they are speaking almost wholly from ignorance, hearsay and rumour . What they gain from coming on here and writing this garbage I have been trying to understand but have failed. They are very sad people who have my sympathy.

There isn't any misleading here. LP has no scientific evidence to support it. You seem not to understand that you can't apply a psychological therapy (and that's what it is) to cure a physical illness. You could perhaps use LP therapy in instances where your thinking processes are making you ill in some manner -- it's about health and lifestyle choices though -- you know -- if you were using food to deal with unhappy feelings or something.

There are no choices that we have regarding the ME -- we don't choose to have it, we don't choose to have POTs, we don't choose to have associated symptoms -- cardiac problems, muscle pain, neuropathy etc etc. WE ARE NOT DOING ME and it's ridiculous and callous for anybody to suggest so. It's ridiculous and callous to blame a person with ME for not doing LP properly and thus not getting cured.

I would like to suggest that you actually look up some science because I don't believe you are speaking from knowledge of the human body. The people answering on this thread are all very intelligent and absolutely are not responding from 'ignorance, hearsay, and rumour'. What those who have posted on this thread are trying to do is educate those who might get sucked in by the promises of LP. I think your failure lies in the fact that you are 'doing' cognitive bias.

I am responding to your thread to try and bring some objectivity into the discussion - the bile, vitriol and disgusting lies that are being peddled about LP and its practitioners on this site are outrageous. It DOES work, and if you want to try it you need to buy this book and read it, very carefully and slowly making a few notes here and there all the while:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/An-Introduction-Lightning-Process®-Getting/dp/178180057X.

Then there are two routes to take. Either contact a practitioner and book yourself on a course (very expensive at £650) or buy Parker's recent book and give it a try yourself:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Get-Life-You-Love-Now/dp/1781801746/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

What members are doing is discussing why LP isn't something that would work for ME. Please provide some evidence where lies are being peddled and this would come from a scientific analysis or from all the research papers that have determined that LP is a scientifically sound therapy that can be applied to physical illness (good luck with that because they don't exist). I think we have better ways to spend our money other than buying a the book.

At only a tenner, it's got to be worth that of anyone's money to try it out - as long as you approach it with an open mind and not full of the bullshit written about LP on this site

By the way, I'd be interested to know how you "tried the lightening (sic) process unknowingly one evening" - without being trained in it you can't do it!

I would read it as a free e-book. Maybe. All LP seems to be is positive affirmations about yourself and a bunch of other psychobabble.

As a final note there is some evidence which (retrospectively!) supports Parker's hypotheses about how the LP helps with conditions such as CFS/ME

"Dr. Bruun Wyller, who is considered to be one of Norway's leading experts on ME, says:
Recent research on CFS pathophysiology has revealed alterations of cardiovascular regulation and thermoregulation, characterized by enhanced sympathetic nervous activity and increased secretion of epinephrine. These findings indicate a state of permanent distress response – sustained arousal – in CFS patients. Based upon our findings, we have formulated a theory of sustained arousal in CFS, which seems to correspond quite neatly to the theoretical considerations underlying the Lightning Process.
You can read this research in full at http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Wyller,VB"

This isn't evidence!

Ambrosia, I wish you (and strangely enough, everyone reading this, including the bile-writers) every blessing and good fortune in your search for freedom from whatever ails you. Myself, I have booked myself into a local gym and must dash for my induction. All the best

Do I detect a note of sarcasm here?

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Peggy-Sue

my pleasure! some fight with logic and research, good deeds, and action
I specialize in silliness, giggles, and deflating pupped up buffoons back down to their little chipolatas!

As for the booze issue
yeah folk have NO idea how damn dangerous the "D.T.s" are can be like 30 to 60% mortality rate untreated, so they cannot just quit
interestingly, in a nasty way, have read docs are now seeing younger people with D.T. caused by *acute* binge drinking not severe very long term abuse, yeesh.


Kina
IMHO, LP offered as anything other than a method to ease psychological burdens, etc for serious health problems, is CRIMINAL, those SCUM using it on kids with M.E. in that "test" are negligent, wicked bastards to my point of view.


In general:

way it is with me now, I'm about at my limit of tolerance when things get too stressful and it sets off a "feedback loops" of cascading suffering
MUCH rather have kidney stones again than this bloody M.E.
pissing "broken glass" (which is what the crystals are like) etc is agony but it's over quickly and morphine works (that's not the worst of having kidney stones, just an additional few inches of "OMFG!" us men have to put up with, lol. Like someone shoving an electrified screwdriver right up your spine, really does paralyze you with pain).

To set kids up with a LIFE time of suffering...? Monstrous, truly monstrous.
it will inevitably set them up for cycles of crashes, many of whom will get worse
this is some strange "feedback" autoimmune illness, probably a common "system of disregulation" thus why several illness all show so many of these symptoms, just genetics and original trigger set it off different, hence, M.E. GWS, Fibro etc.

I really do not get the stupidity of the medical profession etc :/ many folk must be like that so they can feel safe and secure in their comfort blanket of ignorance, superstition and lack of empathy.
Medicine is a religion, psychiatry is a cult!

all we Humans have done so far is uncovered the very simple, most "gross" layers of "illness and bodily problems"
it will take centuries, millennia, maybe MILLIONS of years for us to truly understand our bodies, as it's way WAY more than the damn simple "plumbing",
we are the end result of 3.5 BILLION years of evolution, only a freakin MORON thinks we know jack squat about biology or any other damn thing...from all I've learned, I believe "biology" is the most complex subject of them all by truly Brobdignagian degrees (ecosystems...complexity beyond comprehension in your own backyard, never mind anywhere else)

"Science is about facts and probability, if you want "certainty" and The Truth, Theology and Philosophy are at the end of the hall!"
To paraphrase a Doctor (non-medical) Jones

and not getting at "faith" in case anyone thinks that, faith is very important to me, but it's about enlightenment and compassion, but bloody well not dogma and inhumanity.
There is no damn difference between Wessely's crap, and bunch of ludicrous "rules" that will "get you into Heaven"...all that is like, is not stepping on the cracks of a pavement to avoid bad luck!
Wessely is the God of the Pavement Cracks!

 

[SilverbladeTE]

hm...or is that
"The God of Ass Cracks"?

*shrugs, pondering it*

 

[peggy-sue]

The best description I have ever heard for defining an expert is;
Somebody who is aware of what they don't know.

Following your description of biology and biochemistry, and remembering that the molecular biology of surfaces is a new science, just in its infancy, I reckon your a true expert, @SilverbladeTE !




I had wondered if @Dster might consider a thought experiment.
(I don't know what area of physics he's in - theoretical or practical).

Say I were to write a blog, and I have managed to come up with a great theory - one which will solve all the quantum and gravity problems there are.
I write for pages and pages - all wonderful stuff about how my theory will solve every problem there is.

Then you get to the end. You discover, in a tiny anecdote, that I had based my theory in the notion that the sun turns around the earth. Then you discover that I'm not even a physicist, but qualified in life sciences.

What do you think of my wonderful theory now?

 

[golden]

Sorry to interrupt the thread...

I didnt go for the LP years ago, but it does intrigue me also.

I dont think its positive thinking - but since ive not done it n noone talks of it....really i dont know what it is.

I do believe that yogis for examppe have been shown to have command over their bodies that 'science' previously thought impossible.

I do believe that visualisations and meditations have shown on brain scans a fundamental change in physiology.

I believe that much in visualisation in fact that I have been highly reluctant to use it in a targeted way. (i do mild generalised visialisations) Why? Because i dont know whats wrong with me.

There have been accounts of people being so effective of their visualisations they ameliorated their illness and created a knew one -

Baring this in mind, i too have struggled with low blood pressure and wonder fundamentally if LP visualiaations could cause me harm.

I looked up NLP since there is more info on it. On this website it does say that someone was cured of Cancer in 4 days.

http://www.mindreality.net/healing-cancer-with-nlp

(there is no doubt that this is a sales website though - and it is disturbing)

So I dont think its trying to claim M.E. Is psychological.

Problem is I dont understand it all enough. :/ There must be lab results before n after somewherr. But these would still be anecdotal.

But I am pleased that people are getting cured. Always happy for folk. So long as they arent 'positive trolls'.

 

[peggy-sue]

LP isn't claiming ME is psychological, Golden, (you are not interrupting, you are contributing )
I don't think they have the slightest idea of what it is, and I don't think they'd be interested or care.
They want to sell the process, they don't do diagnosis.
They're just slipping themselves neatly into the grey area of confusion created by the CFS name and the conflation with ME, and hoping that folk who like slightly mystical stuff and don't have a life science training, are going to be desperate enough to fork out.
No refunds, remember.

 

[Wildcat]

Descriptions of doing the Lightning Process (LP) (3 days) by people who have done it

http://sallycats.hubpages.com/hub/The-Lightning-Process-Didnt-Work-For-me


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Wildcat says:
.
Lightning encourages people with ME to abandon pacing, thus the numerous bad ME relapses amongst people who have done LP.

Mr Phil Parker has a lot invested in making out that no one can know what Lightning is unless they have done it.
But Lightning is not a mystery. Its a collection of NLP and self hypnosis techniques that already existed, but Lightning takes them to the level of obedience training.
.

The 'Stop' technique did not originate with Lightning; its a hypnotherapy/CBT technique thats been around for ages before Phil Parker incorporated it into LP. All the components of Lightning existed before Mr Parker 'invented' Lightning.
.


As for the idea that critics of Lightning being "closed minded" - I am a critic of Lightning, and learned all of those techniques 30 odd years ago (probably before Mr Parker did) - and I have been around the NLP world too, from quite early on - before it was everywhere.

.
I used self hypnosis for my driving test, exams I took as an adult, and for public speaking the first time I did it. Very useful, but it doesn't get you through exams or driving tests or public speaking if you haven't done the necessary work for those things.
..

BUT - none of those techniques have been in the least bit useful for my ME symptoms.
.
.
.

 

[golden]

Do you know any cfs drs in the UK? I can't find any that are willing to go against nice guidelines. I can only find Dr myhill and she is overly subscribed and quite far from where I am. I don't have any saving s to spend sadly. I don't think I'd be able to survive a trip abroad either.

i hope its fair to point out that Dr. myhill is a CFS Doctor.

She does not require you to see her in person and does distant consults.

She does not think there is a reliable Lyme test.

She will not check to see if all other illness has been ruled out and tested for.

The charge is three hundred pound plus for her blood tests and interpretation. Eating a paleo diet, good sleep hygiene, and supplements are the prescription.

 

[Min]

Three hundred pounds for the laboratory tests and her interpretation is hardly unreasonable. If you want her to treat you, you need to see her in person. She is medically qualified, unlike Phil Parker and his ' therapists'.