Tenofovir (Viread) / Raltegravir (Isentress) Cures ME/CFS Patient Sick for 20 Yrs + Tenofovir Poll

[fingers2022]

The risks are always important to point out, in part so that people can make an informed decision, and in part so that they can ensure they minimize the risk. So in the case of the kidney concerns, it is important to make people aware of the need for regular kidney function tests when taking tenofovir.

This is the sort of info that anyone taking tenofovir should be pointing out when they post on forums. Pointing out the potential side effects is not the same as implying that you should not take the drug.

Simply stating risks and side effects is one thing - have you ever read one of the leaflets that comes with drugs? Nobody would take anything. It's commonly known as arse-covering, disclaimers to avoid legal action etc.

Another thing is emphasising that these drugs are dangerous and saying that folk with ME get worse on them. That is also anecdotal, and not necessarily cause and effect, as many have commented regarding the efficacy. I will reiterate that the NHS in UK signposts folk to a site where they can obtain these drugs without a prescription. Granted, not ME sufferers (although I was, as an ME sufferer). There was no mention of risks, in fact I was reassured that they are safe.

 

[Hip]

@Hip I agree, I wonder what if anything we can posit about this...

Hard to say, especially in just one case. It could be that @Keela Too's health gains are just a long-lasting but ultimately temporary improvement that will eventually disappear (but I hope for Keela's sake that this is not the case). In other words, tenofovir could be a bit like interferon, which has produced major improvements lasting up to 14 months in some ME/CFS patients, but then the patient's ME/CFS eventually returns.

Or tenofovir could be a bit like oxymatrine, which Dr Chia reports can produce permanent improvements in health in male patients — improvements that remain indefinitely even after stopping oxymatrine (though for some reason oxymatrine does not usually create permanent improvements in females, who have to continue taking oxymatrine indefinitely if they want to keep their healths gains).

If we look at this from an enterovirus perspective, then perhaps by inducing IL-10, tenofovir might have eliminated enterovirus from some crucial tissues such as the brain or spleen, and even though the infection is not fully eradicated, its grip on the body is now less.

If we were to speculate about a retrovirus playing some causal role ME/CFS, then one might interpret @Keela Too's long term improvements as tenofovir reducing the retroviral load, which in turn allows the immune system to better fight off the viruses linked to ME/CFS that she may have, such as enterovirus or EBV.

 

[Hip]

Simply stating risks and side effects is one thing - have you ever read one of the leaflets that comes with drugs?

Yes, but those drug leaflets need to be looked at mathematically, otherwise you will drive yourself crazy. If there is a risk of a serious side effect like death, you want to know how common it is. If that risk is 1 in 10 million — which is about the same as your per flight risk of dying in a plane crash — then that's not of much concern. But if the risk of death is 1 in 1000, then that is a different story.

The drug leaflets in the EU categorize side effects as:

Very common — More than 1 in 10
Common — 1 in 10 to 1 in 100
Uncommon — 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000
Rare — 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10,000
Very rare — Less than 1 in 10,000

So when you read a drug leaflet, you want to note which of the above categories a side effect falls under.

ME/CFS patients are often extra-sensitive to drugs anyway, and even to innocuous dietary supplements, so we are more wary than most about the downsides of medications. I am always very cautious when taking any new treatment, even a supplement, because I know from experience that these can cause bad effects that don't normally appear in healthy people.

Surely with your ME/CFS, you must have experienced such sensitivities and adverse effects from medications?

Another thing is emphasising that these drugs are dangerous and saying that folk with ME get worse on them. That is also anecdotal, and not necessarily cause and effect, as many have commented regarding the efficacy.

Well in this case it appears to be a doctor reporting that nearly half of his ME/CFS patients got worse on tenofovir. We don't know how many patients he has treated, but that seems a little bit more than just a one-off anecdote. But I agree in a single case anecdote, that is not necessarily cause and effect.

For me personally, that probably would not stop me trying tenofovir, but that comes down to individual choice about what risks to take.

 

[fingers2022]

If we were to speculate about a retrovirus playing some causal role ME/CFS, then one might interpret @Keela Too's long term improvements as tenofovir reducing the retroviral load, which in turn allows the immune system to better fight off the viruses linked to ME/CFS that she may have, such as enterovirus or EBV.

Well, yes, that's what we are talking about here. It's a very plausible explanation is it not? Fits the picture, no? Enterovirus as root cause? Hmmm, would that cause other latent infections to get busy?

 

[fingers2022]

Yes, but those drug leaflets need to be looked at mathematically, otherwise you will drive yourself crazy. If there is a risk of a serious side effect like death, you want to know how common it is. If that risk is 1 in 10 million — which is about the same as your per flight risk of dying in a plane crash — then that's not of much concern. But if the risk of death is 1 in 1000, then that is a different story.

The drug leaflets in the EU categorize side effects as:

Very common — More than 1 in 10
Common — 1 in 10 to 1 in 100
Uncommon — 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000
Rare — 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10,000
Very rare — Less than 1 in 10,000

So when you read a drug leaflet, you want to note which of the above categories a side effect falls under.

ME/CFS patients are often extra-sensitive to drugs anyway, and even to innocuous dietary supplements, so we are more wary than most about the downsides of medications. I am always very cautious when taking any new treatment, even a supplement, because I know from experience that these can cause bad effects that don't normally appear in healthy people.

Surely with your ME/CFS, you must have experienced such sensitivities and adverse effects from medications?

Well in this case it appears to be a doctor reporting that nearly half of his ME/CFS patients got worse on tenofovir. We don't know how many patients he has treated, but that seems a little bit more than just a one-off anecdote. But I agree in a single case anecdote, that is not necessarily cause and effect.

For me personally, that probably would not stop me trying tenofovir, but that comes down to individual choice about what risks to take.

My ME is viral in nature. I've had a reaction to penicillin, which went away in time. Otherwise, no sensitivities as such. I think that's interesting. I might suggest that if someone's ME is clearly viral, give ART a shot. If it is marked by sensitivities, allergies etc., maybe rituximab?

I think I've met the doc you mention - he wouldn't engage in dialogue before a consultation, so I travelled from Cornwall to Harley Street to see him. Instead of prescribing ART, he told me about the patients who had bad reactions, then proceeded to give me a lesson in energy systems, fatigue, mitochondria. I have a degree in applied sport and health science and I'm not that stupid....well, not very. He didn't get paid.

The bottom line is that doctors ain't all that smart, in fact they are often f...ing useless. Then everyone says do this shit under medical supervision...are you kidding me????

I had a doc the other day debating with me about use of beta blockers for elevated heart rate. I said, hang on, you can't administer a drug that reduces heart rate without some payback. She said that they increase stroke volume...and here is the punch line...she said that the reason she could out-debate me on all of this was because she had done 7 years at medical school. I checked out beta blockers, and yes, folk on them get circulation problems because stroke volume stays the same whilst stroke rate reduces. Treating symptoms alone (like stimulated immune system) is rarely better than treating root causes.

 

[fingers2022]

@Hip I agree, I wonder what if anything we can posit about this...

Perhaps viral RNA can be cleared from a certain percentage of tissue thus reducing systemic inflammation

Or perhaps immunmodulary properties of the drug affect a permanent shift in cytokine balance

Isn't it simpler than that?
The drugs stop RV replication. They address the root cause.

 

[Keela Too]

It is interesting to think about, and I agree @Hip it really can't be known how things will go for me looking forwards.

For now I'm taking one day at a time.

However there's a bit more to my story you might find interesting.

1. I've found that fasting helps me! I was sliding down around March/April this year. About this time I had also started to measure my morning blood sugar (a friend was curious to compare responses to various foods), and I discovered my measurements were high. Anyway through this, I heard of another individual using regular fasting as a tool to help type 2 diabetes. As I REALLY didn't want to have to go to the Dr and say I'd been messing around measuring my blood sugar levels, I gave the fasting a go.... AND to my huge surprise the ME symptoms that had been most definitely been returning started to recede again! (And it sorta helped my sugar issue too )

2. Then in July I needed antibiotics for an infected cut, and during that week I have to say I felt more well than I have in years! So with feeling good, I got more relaxed over the fasting thing during this period... unfortunately the boost that I attribute to the antibiotics only lasted a while, and I started to slide backwards again.... meh

3. By mid August, I put myself back onto the fasting cycle I'd used before, and it seems that has brought me back up to a better level of functioning again. Basically I don't eat anything on one chosen day each week, I also might do a day each week with just one meal, and the other days I eat normally. I've also done the occasional 2 day fast. It's an imposition, but if this is keeping me in a better state then the trade-off is a small one.

Of course I don't know what is round the corner, but I'm doing my best, and so long as I take things slowly/steadily I can now do quite a bit in a day. (Not as much as I'd like of course, but hey ho! )

 

[Stretched]

I thought I’d share my related story re trial ART in case anyone else is considering or has gone this route. If so, I’d sure like to hear of
your experience... .

After recently reading Hustler’s account and a couple of others I became motivated to try ART on my own, as a longtime PWC. Before doing so I reasearched the straight skinny on how the ARs actually work and checked if there were applications for non-HIV ART, and if so, which conditions.

I then looked at an HIV list of ARVs and tried to synthesize a SWAG for a combo that might work in CFS/ME, given the above referenced accounts. I don’t know that I proved any of this to myself but given Prof. Lipkin’s opinion that CFS/ME may indeed have ARV components I decided to give Tenofovir* a try.

*I found that ARVs are usually given in combination with other ARVs (due to their complimentary effects); and so decided to try a single pill combo ARV, which of course brought on a lot more research - which one with Tenofovir? (Consider their preponderance/tolerance, date when hitting the market, and the manufacturer, et al).

Viraday (international; same as Atripla in the U.S) stood out. Either is a combo of 3 ARVs, including Tenofovir (mfr’d by Bristol- Myers-Squibb, Gilead Sciences; market entry, mid 2000’s; ~550,000 rx’s to date; well tolerated history).

I started with a 1/2 tab daily a week ago; and have felt mild side effects, namely in dreams. Rather than nightmares they’ve been rather pleasant ‘work through’ sorts, where I awake still in, ie contemplating the dream!

However, I remain nervous as the long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs due to the warnings on the mfr‘s pamphlet and the contents of this thread, above... . I’ll get a kidney and liver check soon. (‘Should have done a viral count In advance... .) Off on yet another trial by fire!

 

[Hip]

Well, yes, that's what we are talking about here. It's a very plausible explanation is it not? Fits the picture, no? Enterovirus as root cause? Hmmm, would that cause other latent infections to get busy?

If there were a retrovirus in ME/CFS, I think it's quite possible it would work along the lines of AIDS, in which it is often it's the opportunistic infections that cause the trouble, rather than HIV itself.

So one might have the assumed ME/CFS retrovirus in their body for many years or decades, but not have ME/CFS until you catch something like an enterovirus or EBV, which then because of the immune-suppressive effects of the retrovirus, the body cannot fully control, so you end up with a chronic active enterovirus or EBV infection, as found in many ME/CFS patients.


But perhaps you are not keen on this dual-virus idea; maybe you prefer the idea that a retrovirus just on its own can cause ME/CFS.

Well, a retrovirus singularly causing ME/CFS just on its own does not square up very well with the fact that ME/CFS is known to appear after glandular fever (mononucleosis). Around 9% of people who get mononucleosis, which is usually caused by Epstein-Barr virus, will go on to develop ME/CFS. This is the EBV subset of ME/CFS.

If the idea that ME/CFS is singularly caused by a retrovirus were true, then you would not get ME/CFS following mononucleosis, because according to the singular retrovirus theory, EBV cannot cause ME/CFS, only the retrovirus can.

 

[fingers2022]

If there were a retrovirus in ME/CFS, I think it's quite possible it would work along the lines of AIDS, in which it is often it's the opportunistic infections that cause the trouble, rather than HIV itself.

So one might have this assumed ME/CFS retrovirus in the body for many years or decades, but not have ME/CFS until you catch something like an enterovirus or EBV, which then because of the immune-suppressive effects of the retrovirus, the body cannot fully control, so you end up with a chronic active enterovirus or EBV infection, as found in many ME/CFS patients.


But perhaps you are not keen on this dual-virus idea; maybe you prefer the idea that a retrovirus just on its own can cause ME/CFS.

Well, a retrovirus singularly causing ME/CFS just on its own does not square up very well with the fact that ME/CFS is known to appear after glandular fever (mononucleosis). Around 9% of people who get mononucleosis, which is usually caused by Epstein-Barr virus, will go on to develop ME/CFS. This is the EBV subset of ME/CFS.

If the idea that ME/CFS is singularly caused by a retrovirus were true, then you would not get ME/CFS following mononucleosis, because according to the singular retrovirus theory, EBV cannot cause ME/CFS, only the retrovirus can.

Not completely following your logic.
The simple question is, which virus do we treat? EB on it's own is fairly benign. Most recover.
So, let's take the scenario of RV + EB. Treat the EB? Chances are that another HHV could step in, or one that you've already got.
Treat the RV, maybe problem controlled.
Isn't it the same with HIV? Someone can have HIV for some time before getting sick? As you say, it's the coinfections that cause symptoms, not the RV.

 

[sb4]

I've found that fasting helps me!

Have you tried the ketosis diet, if fasting helps then keto should. Its sort of like mimics the benefits of fasting whilst minimizing the negatives.

 

[fingers2022]

It is interesting to think about, and I agree @Hip it really can't be known how things will go for me looking forwards.

For now I'm taking one day at a time.

However there's a bit more to my story you might find interesting.

1. I've found that fasting helps me! I was sliding down around March/April this year. About this time I had also started to measure my morning blood sugar (a friend was curious to compare responses to various foods), and I discovered my measurements were high. Anyway through this, I heard of another individual using regular fasting as a tool to help type 2 diabetes. As I REALLY didn't want to have to go to the Dr and say I'd been messing around measuring my blood sugar levels, I gave the fasting a go.... AND to my huge surprise the ME symptoms that had been most definitely been returning started to recede again! (And it sorta helped my sugar issue too )

2. Then in July I needed antibiotics for an infected cut, and during that week I have to say I felt more well than I have in years! So with feeling good, I got more relaxed over the fasting thing during this period... unfortunately the boost that I attribute to the antibiotics only lasted a while, and I started to slide backwards again.... meh

3. By mid August, I put myself back onto the fasting cycle I'd used before, and it seems that has brought me back up to a better level of functioning again. Basically I don't eat anything on one chosen day each week, I also might do a day each week with just one meal, and the other days I eat normally. I've also done the occasional 2 day fast. It's an imposition, but if this is keeping me in a better state then the trade-off is a small one.

Of course I don't know what is round the corner, but I'm doing my best, and so long as I take things slowly/steadily I can now do quite a bit in a day. (Not as much as I'd like of course, but hey ho! )

That is interesting.
I'm intrigued about the blood sugar levels.
My understanding is that high BG up to a point wouldn't cause symptoms...however low BG does. Personally, one feature of my ME is that I don't tolerate sugar very well - I seem to get an insulin spike which causes low BG, which makes me feel vaguely unwell, until it gets to the extreme point of a serious hypo - shakes, vision etc.
Now, the fasting - I can often feel much better if I don't eat than if I do. So yes, fasting for me seems to balance my blood sugar levels. Also, I've trained my fat burning all my life through endurance exercise, so I think this helps. Fasting will also train your fat burning, which should in turn balance your BG levels. Fasting is well-evidenced as an approach and it's a natural state as per the palaeo / evolution principles of scarcity of food.

 

[Keela Too]

Have you tried the ketosis diet, if fasting helps then keto should. Its sort of like mimics the benefits of fasting whilst minimizing the negatives.

Yes - but I find it easier to fast than to go that low on carbs. Also there is apparently something about fasting that helps revitalise the immune system. Also it seems to lessen my PEM effects. I'm not sure if it would be as much help if I hadn't already had the ARV treatment?? Who knows.

 

[fingers2022]

I thought I’d share my related story re trial ART in case anyone else is considering or has gone this route. If so, I’d sure like to hear of
your experience... .

After recently reading Hustler’s account and a couple of others I became motivated to try ART on my own, as a longtime PWC. Before doing so I reasearched the straight skinny on how the ARs actually work and checked if there were applications for non-HIV ART, and if so, which conditions.

I then looked at an HIV list of ARVs and tried to synthesize a SWAG for a combo that might work in CFS/ME, given the above referenced accounts. I don’t know that I proved any of this to myself but given Prof. Lipkin’s opinion that CFS/ME may indeed have ARV components I decided to give Tenofovir* a try.

*I found that ARVs are usually given in combination with other ARVs (due to their complimentary effects); and so decided to try a single pill combo ARV, which of course brought on a lot more research - which one with Tenofovir? (Consider their preponderance/tolerance, date when hitting the market, and the manufacturer, et al).

Viraday (international; same as Atripla in the U.S) stood out. Either is a combo of 3 ARVs, including Tenofovir (mfr’d by Bristol- Myers-Squibb, Gilead Sciences; market entry, mid 2000’s; ~550,000 rx’s to date; well tolerated history).

I started with a 1/2 tab daily a week ago; and have felt mild side effects, namely in dreams. Rather than nightmares they’ve been rather pleasant ‘work through’ sorts, where I awake still in, ie contemplating the dream!

However, I remain nervous as the long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs due to the warnings on the mfr‘s pamphlet and the contents of this thread, above... . I’ll get a kidney and liver check soon. (‘Should have done a viral count In advance... .) Off on yet another trial by fire!

ha yes, the dreams...quite enjoying them, especially the raunchy ones! A kinda virtual reality huh?
I'm taking Tenofovir + Emtricitabine as single combo because that's what's available as PREP (HIV prophylactic). They are both the same class drugs...from memory reverse transcriptase inhibitors I think, address the same part of the replication cycle, maybe combined to reduce risk of resistance.

Yeah get the KF tests done - I don't think liver is so much at risk but check with pharmacist. Drink water! lots! Matcha green tea might be a good idea too - might protect both liver and kidney.

Hustler is suggesting Raltegravir and Kaletra with Tenofovir. I might add these in the new year.
I do think my recovery from physical activity is improved, and my PEM is reduced.
Anecdotal of course, but objectively my resting heart rate is down - was consistently above 50, now consistently below, down to 39 at one point, felt very good. This is low by most standards, part genetic, part training.
I'm a big fan of monitoring RHR and trying to get it down naturally, mainly with physical exercise if that is possible for you...might have to pay a price, that's individual choice, but better than type2 diabetes or CVD. I do appreciate that that is out of reach of many. Maybe ART could put it in reach of some?

 

[Keela Too]

That is interesting.
I'm intrigued about the blood sugar levels.
My understanding is that high BG up to a point wouldn't cause symptoms...however low BG does. Personally, one feature of my ME is that I don't tolerate sugar very well - I seem to get an insulin spike which causes low BG, which makes me feel vaguely unwell, until it gets to the extreme point of a serious hypo - shakes, vision etc.

Yes like you I don't tolerate sugar well now. To be honest I don't eat that much sugary stuff anyway. Fruit is okay I find. Not sure why my morning sugars were high, but I don't think that in itself was the problem. I think I was just lucky that through the sugar thing, I found something that helped with ME.

Now, the fasting - I can often feel much better if I don't eat than if I do. So yes, fasting for me seems to balance my blood sugar levels. Also, I've trained my fat burning all my life through endurance exercise, so I think this helps. Fasting will also train your fat burning, which should in turn balance your BG levels. Fasting is well-evidenced as an approach and it's a natural state as per the palaeo / evolution principles of scarcity of food.

Look for Dr Jason Fung on YouTube if you are interested in his fasting ideas. He has a couple of books on Amazon too. I'm totally with you on the paleo / evolution thing. We did not evolve to cope well with never-ending abundance!

PS Prior to ME I was good at long slow distance type of exercise.

 

[Hip]

Not completely following your logic.
The simple question is, which virus do we treat? EB on it's own is fairly benign. Most recover.

Well first of all, the evidence of retroviral involvement in ME/CFS is very slim at this stage, so we are talking about a retrovirus that exists as a theoretical concept, but not in terms of any solid empirical evidence. Whereas active EBV or enterovirus infections in ME/CFS are empirical facts.

But even if we assume the existence of a retrovirus in ME/CFS, the question of which to treat, the retrovirus or the opportunistic infections like enterovirus, EBV or other herpes family viruses, mostly comes down to what drugs are available that target these viruses. If there are no drugs available, then you can't treat a viral infection. If there were drugs available to target both the retrovirus and the opportunistic infections, that would probably be the most efficient course of action (the more causal factors you can address, the more likely you are going to get improvements in health).



The reason people have speculatively used tenofovir and raltegravir for ME/CFS is because these two antiretrovirals happen to target feline leukemia virus. Refs: 1 2 And raltegravir targets murine leukemia virus. Ref: 1 A antiretroviral drug called elvitegravir (Vitekta) is also antiviral for murine leukemia virus. Ref: 1

Both feline leukemia virus and murine leukemia virus are from the gammaretrovirus genus, along with XMRV. XMRV itself is a man-made virus, accidentally created in a lab in the mid-1990's by a fluke recombination event in a mouse, meaning it cannot be the historical cause of ME/CFS, a disease we know existed for many decades before the 1990s.

However, it is interesting to note that in 2001 Sidney Grossberg found a virus called the JHK retrovirus (from the murine leukemia virus family) in one ME/CFS patient (yes, in just one patient, so very little evidence of an association to ME/CFS at this stage). Grossberg's latest paper is this one. So the idea of a murine leukemia virus in ME/CFS remains.

Other antiretrovirals have no known effect against feline/murine leukemia viruses.



But for me, given that a this stage, a retrovirus in ME/CFS only really exists as a speculative concept, my bet would be that the benefits of tenofovir and raltegravir for ME/CFS come from the known antiviral effects that raltegravir has on herpes family viruses (viruses known to exist and to be active in ME/CFS), and the known immunomodulatory effects of tenofovir, which possibly may help to clear enterovirus infections (known to exist and to be active in ME/CFS).



By the way, its not really true to say that EBV on its own is fairly benign, because many researchers think EBV is the cause of multiple sclerosis (and there's good empirical evidence for this). And EBV is also linked to:

autoimmune diseases, breast cancer, Burkitt's Lymphoma, esophageal cancer, Hodgkin's lymphoma, nasopharyngeal carcinoma (EBV is a known cause of this), chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, seasonal
affective disorder and lupus.

Likewise, enteroviruses are linked to:

amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, ADHD, autoimmune diseases, carcinoid tumors, Crohn's disease, diabetes mellitus type 1, diabetes mellitus type 2, dilated cardiomyopathy, Guillain–Barré syndrome, hypertension, myocardial infarction and schizophrenia.

Source: List of Chronic Human Diseases Linked To Infectious Pathogens

 

[fingers2022]

XMRV itself is a man-made virus, accidentally created in a lab in the mid-1990's by a fluke recombination event in a mouse, meaning it cannot be the historical cause of ME/CFS, a disease we know existed for many decades before the 1990s.

Yes I believe there was a RV created in the lab (Silverman?). Probably others which weren't (De Freitas? Mikovits?). That's where it all got a bit complicated. Conversation probably been done at length elsewhere, probably still unresolved.

I meant trying to establish a root cause rather than other factors. Root causes might be construed as various stressors, but as with HIV, once a RV is established, it's too late to address those. On the other hand, an unhindered immune system seems to deal effectively with HHV variants.

 

[Hip]

On the other hand, an unhindered immune system seems to deal effectively with HHV variants.

That's a matter for debate, because as mentioned above, enteroviruses and herpes family viruses are linked to numerous diseases. And although such links do not yet prove that these viruses cause these diseases, there are many researchers who think that they likely do play a causal role.

And it's not just enteroviruses and herpes: many viruses and bacteria in common circulation are linked to all sorts of common diseases that afflict humans. If you just briefly glance at the article I quoted above, you will see how many common chronic diseases are associated with infectious pathogens.

To give a random example: chronic lower back pain, whose cause has always been something of a mystery, has recently been linked to a Propionibacterium acnes infection in the spinal disc.

So if numerous diseases do turn out to be caused by common viruses and bacteria, that would suggest that these pathogens are quite capable of causing chronic illness just on their own. You don't necessarily need a retrovirus to explain it.


That said, I think we should remain open to the idea that a retrovirus might be involved; but I also think that enteroviruses and herpes family viruses may be quite capable of causing ME/CFS just on their own, without any other pathogen being involved (though there may well be cofactors that help these viruses trigger ME/CFS, such as mycotoxin exposure possibly).

 

[Hip]

By the way, a while ago I compiled this list of pharmacies that sell tenofovir:

Tenofovir 300 mg x 30 pills

safegenericpharmacy.com— — — — — — — — — $52 + $20 shipping
safegenericpharmacy.com (Ricovir)— — — — $52 + $20 shipping

www.alldaychemist.com— — — — — — — — — — $53 + $25 shipping
www.unitedpharmacies-uk.md — — — — — — — £36 + £8 shipping

www.reliablerxpharmacy.com — — — — — — — $64 + $12 shipping
www.topdrugmart.co — — — — — — — — — — — $66 + $25 shipping

Tenofovir 300 mg + Lamivudine 300 mg x 30 pills

safegenericpharmacy.com (Ricovir L)— — — $53 + $20 shipping
www.buy-pharma.md (plus efavirenz) — — — $120 + $14 shipping


Tenofovir + lamivudine (Epivir) would be useful for anyone with active enterovirus infections, as Dr Chia uses Epivir to treat enterovirus.

 

[fingers2022]

That's a matter for debate, because as mentioned above, enteroviruses and herpes family viruses are linked to numerous diseases. And although such links do not yet prove that these viruses cause these diseases, there are many researchers who think that they likely do play a causal role.

And my point about your point about lab-created XMRV?