T3 intracellular calcium and caffeine

[S-VV]

It could also be mitochondrial calcium.

I just ordered extended release caffeine tablets. I want to see if that works better than drinking coffee because I do get improved brain function from my lattes but tend to get a mild crash afterwards.

My mother in law had her thyroid removed several decades ago and she only takes levothyroxine without any T3. She's been drinking coffee pretty much non-stop throughout the day ever since, literally non-stop - and she manages to function pretty well that way. I suspect she's able to keep her T3 at decent level because of that.

That's very interesting. I have normal spina-gt, but low spina-gd, and taking coffee helps immensely. I don't usually experience crashes afterwards.

 

[pattismith]

@Iritu1021

I don't crash with coffee, but it only works with T3 intake for me.

Otherwise, if I need an urgent boost, I can take Glucuronamide (600 mg) + caffeine and it works great, but I crash for several days after that!

My hypothesis about it:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/glucuronamide-and-hiv.61288/

 

[Iritu1021]

@Iritu1021

I don't crash with coffee, but it only works with T3 intake for me.

Otherwise, if I need an urgent boost, I can take Glucuronamide (600 mg) + caffeine and it works great, but I crash for several days after that!

My hypothesis about it:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/glucuronamide-and-hiv.61288/

I think that the paradox of our condition is that almost everything that makes us feel better immediately will make us feel worse later on.

Therefore, the opposite might be true - that the right medicine is supposed to make us feel worse at first or maybe not have any effect. I am pretty much skeptical now of anything that has positive effect right away since I know it's a stimulant type effect. The problem is of course that we usually don't know what to expect and we tend to discontinue drugs that don't provide us with the desired effect right away. Most of the time it's the right call, but there are probably treatments that we don't give enough chance to work (vs let's say a patient who would be told to wait six weeks for antidepressant to work and try to tolerate the side effects until then).

Lithium was the only time where I believed in something enough to push through the initial side effects - and I still believe that it saved my life at the time.

 

[Iritu1021]

Some people think that it's very important to have caffeine with some kind of form of carbohydrate and maybe even protein, because of its effect on metabolism. I noticed better effects having it with a meal or milk and sugar than on its own.

That's what I've been running on for most of my life. Latte with chocolate
But if I can get good effect from a caffeine pill then maybe I can lose some weight!

 

[Wishful]

I think that the paradox of our condition is that almost everything that makes us feel better immediately will make us feel worse later on.

Nope. I think that most of the things that have made me feel better immediately (<24 hrs) have not made me feel worse after that. The benefits just wore off...and then stopped working after a few repetitions.

Maybe the crashing after an improvement is tied to the physical limitations the majority of ME victims experience.

 

[Iritu1021]

That's very interesting. I have normal spina-gt, but low spina-gd, and taking coffee helps immensely. I don't usually experience crashes afterwards.

There have been two studies recently in the news that linked lower metabolic rate and lower thyroid numbers with increased survival. So while I do believe that majority of CFS patients are hypothyroid and feel hypothyroid, I'm not so sure now that pushing metabolism further than it wants to go is the best decision. In the best case scenario, the body creates further adjustments (which might stay with you for good if you continue long enough to induce changes on transcription level); if you keep pushing beyond that point you end up in a much worse situation than you were in before - which is what happened to me because I kept pushing my thyroid dose higher than what my body could handle (based on STTM recommendations) and it almost killed me in the end, I had to stop cold turkey which was hell, and it took forever to recover from that.

When I took lithium, my TSH and thyroid levels began to come up on their own - in retrospect I believe it was because lithium changed something in my body (my current belief is that it was intracellular calcium) and my body then became able to handle higher metabolic rate so it adjusted on its own. So despite the fact that lithium is supposed to worsen thyroid function, it had a paradoxical effect of increasing my metabolic rate - and the fact that it changes secondary messaging and calcium set point fits with the other observations mentioned in this thread.

I think dysautonomia is what happens to me when I have too much T3 and not enough intracellular calcium to handle that rate of metabolism - it disrupts neural transmission.

 

[Iritu1021]

I also observed a rise in my TSH level with use of micro doses slow release T3 (<1 mcg) - but never with any other form of thyroid. I think that's because this tiny trickle of T3 increases calcium by stimulating parathyroid gland while larger doses create transient state of hyperthyroidism which increases calcium losses.

 

[S-VV]

I see. If I understood it correctly you're saying that low thyroid hormones are more an indicator rather than the cause of the dysfunction, and that fixing that underlying dysfunction will make thyroid/TSH levels rise due to a new homeostasis being established.

On the contrary, pushing thyroid levels while the dysfunction is present could have negative effects, like thyroid resistance etc...

Very interesting!!!

 

[S-VV]

As a sidenote, just when my CFS started my spina-gd was 27. Two months later it was 20. On the other hand, spina-gt remained constant at 3.40.

To me, this makes it clear that deodienation is the problem. I am thinking of micro dosing T3/T4 in doses of 0.5mcg/1mcg to see whether it has a positive effect.

By the way, I have read your blog in the past few days and found it incredibly informative (and inspiring). Keep at it!!

 

[Iritu1021]

I see. If I understood it correctly you're saying that low thyroid hormones are more an indicator rather than the cause of the dysfunction, and that fixing that underlying dysfunction will make thyroid/TSH levels rise due to a new homeostasis being established.

On the contrary, pushing thyroid levels while the dysfunction is present could have negative effects, like thyroid resistance etc...

Very interesting!!!

Yes, that's my current hindsight view that evolved from years of trial and error...

 

[Iritu1021]

As a sidenote, just when my CFS started my spina-gd was 27. Two months later it was 20. On the other hand, spina-gt remained constant at 3.40.

To me, this makes it clear that deodienation is the problem. I am thinking of micro dosing T3/T4 in doses of 0.5mcg/1mcg to see whether it has a positive effect.

By the way, I have read your blog in the past few days and found it incredibly informative (and inspiring). Keep at it!!

Thank you! I really need to update the blog with my latest thoughts on calcium - talking about it here helps me get the ideas better organized in my head (and to be fair they are @pattismith ideas too, it's kind of funny/strange that she and I seem to regularly arrive at the same theories around the same time, like we did last time with T1AM).
Let me know how it goes with micro-dosing for you, I'm interested in collecting more data points on that.

 

[Iritu1021]

Don't know if it's true or just marketing ploy but I'm going to give it a try...

Calcium orotate is the most effective form of calcium. The research of Hans A. Nieper, M.D. demonstrates that "orotates penetrate cell membranes, enabling the effective delivery of the calcium ion to the inner-most layers of the cellular mitochondria and nucleus. Other forms of calcium supplements, such as calcium carbonates, citrates, gluconates, lactates, malates and phosphates, do not have the ability to penetrate deep into the membranes." Explanation can be found at: http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/calcium-orotate/

 

[pattismith]

That's very interesting. I have normal spina-gt, but low spina-gd, and taking coffee helps immensely. I don't usually experience crashes afterwards.

Spina GD is the sum activity of deiodinase 5', so this means your fT3 is low, am I wrong?

 

[S-VV]

Spina GD is the sum activity of deiodinase 5', so this means your fT3 is low, am I wrong?

That's exactly my suspicion. Where I'm from they only measure total T3/T4 but I'm going to pay for a fT3 fT4 test to see if I have the Low T3 syndrome like the recent study suggests.

It would be great to have thyroid hormones as a therapeutic target.

 

[Iritu1021]

So pure caffeine 200 mg (immediate release) proved inferior to latte and carb combo. Will see if extended release does any better but I agree that it is probably the synergy with dairy and carbs/sugar that helps to "turbo charge" my brain.

 

[Wishful]

I did a bit of checking on the calcium orotate supplement. I'm not convinced that it's wildly superior. I couldn't find any peer-reviewed studies confirming his claims. The claims of 90% bioavailability seem to be all on site that are selling the product. Another site (not selling the product) said that orate was just a more expensive form for getting your supplemental calcium. Maybe orate is a better form for some people with dsyfunctional calcium transport systems, but a quick check doesn't find supporting evidence for that claim.

While checking that out, I did come across a mention that carbs, particularly lactose, did assist calcium absorption, though I didn't dig deeper to verify that. Maybe calcium absorption is part of why your latte and carb helps you.

 

[drob31]

This thread seems like a huge break through.

I too have the issue where t3 makes me go hypo immediately due to something malfunctioning, such as this CaSR issue.

Carbs make me feel much better. I have mixed results with caffeine. It does tend to crash me at times, depending on the amount.

There's a lot of key words jumping out in this thread. The hypothyroid symptoms seem to cause my a mild case of diabetes insipidus, and that leads me to HTCZ as well....

 

[drob31]

Is there a reason why taking calcium wouldn't mostly fix this? Is it that it's not bioavailable and won't make it into the cells?

Also what about calcium channel openers versus blockers.?

 

[S-VV]

I wonder what insights HTMA can bring into this. Acording to ARL:

"A high calcium level on a hair analysis often represents a loss of calcium into the soft tissues. One reason for the loss of calcium into the tissues is that under certain circumstances calcium cannot be maintained in an ionized form in the blood. Therefore it begins to precipitate into the soft tissues"

And

"Originally, Dr. Eck did not recommend supplementing calcium when the calcium level is high and instead focused on making the calcium soluble or bioavailable. This is done by enhancing adrenal and thyroid activity, which will raise the levels of the tissue sodium and potassium levels"

So cortisol and thyroid make calcium available. I read before that @pattysmith said that stress makes her feel better. That is exactly my experience. After a shock, not sleeping for a night, or anything that would raise cortisol/T3, I feel much better.

If it is of interest, here are my HTMA results. Notice how calcium is disproportionately high in relation to Mg, Na and K.

 

[S-VV]

I only found transient but total relief of my symptoms when supplementing with T3 and prednisolone, but mostly losing the good effect when supplementing on a regular basis.

I wonder if you exhausted your deposited Ca reserves by mobilizing them with T3 and cortisol, and if adding supplemental Ca while taking both hormones could mantain remission