Symptoms After Exercise Poll (PEM)

[SOC]

Good point we should ask for non-medicated responses! Muscle pain is a big part of my post exercise symptoms....except that its different from my pain from exercise prior to CFS - its a burning pain...not an aching pain...

Good point. I think it's also interesting, however, to see which symptoms persist even with symptomatic treatment. Maybe there's some core group of untreatable symptoms that provide a clue...

If we consider the current poll to be symptoms that persist even with treatment, it looks like there's a pretty clear group of 3 that would not necessarily be expected from "typical" overexercising -- severe fatigue, flu-like symptoms, and cognitive problems. However, they sound like pretty common reactions to exercising when you have mono, for example.

My muscle pain happened in 2 types -- burning pain similar to the lactic acid burn of heavy exercise, and strange, dull joint aches that no OTC pain medication could touch. The first I don't have anymore since I don't push my body anywhere near that hard (as in walking for a whole block) anymore. The second wasn't usually part of the PEM, but more just part of a general flare or relapse. That one is usually handled with Cymbalta + OTC pain medication.

I wonder if we're all distinguishing an episode of PEM from general flares/relapses. I don't think the distinction was as clear to me when I when I was less ill than it is to me now....

 

[karynwolfe]

I wonder if we're all distinguishing an episode of PEM from general flares/relapses. I don't think the distinction was as clear to me when I when I was less ill than it is to me now....

I agree, "Post exertional malaise" is a very poorly defined term. Every sick person feels worse symptoms after exertion. It needs to be better defined, or else it cna't be considered a "core" symptom of M.E. The poor definition of it just lets more people get a misdiagnosis of "CFS."

When I think "PEM" i think of any type of physical or MENTAL exertion causing severe feelings of weakness and/or sickness, that doesn't strike until 24-48 hours later. The delay should be on the poll, because THAT is a critical piece of what seperates a symptom-flare that any chronically ill person feels after a rough day, from the crash that happens after our type of "PEM."

 

[Cort]

I agree, "Post exertional malaise" is a very poorly defined term. Every sick person feels worse symptoms after exertion. It needs to be better defined, or else it cna't be considered a "core" symptom of M.E. The poor definition of it just lets more people get a misdiagnosis of "CFS."

When I think "PEM" i think of any type of physical or MENTAL exertion causing severe feelings of weakness and/or sickness, that doesn't strike until 24-48 hours later. The delay should be on the poll, because THAT is a critical piece of what seperates a symptom-flare that any chronically ill person feels after a rough day, from the crash that happens after our type of "PEM."

That's an interesting question in itself because I generally notice the PEM stuff starting pretty quickly. When I exercise I can work myself into a state where I'm feeling pretty good - except that I notice my muscles are tightening up - I feel better for a while - think more clearly for awhile and then within an hour or two or even earlier things start to go wrong with my muscles hurting and feeling hot, tight and contracted. Generally they peak, as you say, 24 or 48 hours later.

 

[Glynis Steele]

This probably is not relevant, but I found this abstract regarding d-lactic concentrations before and after exercise.

Glynis x

D-lactate concentrations in blood, urine and sweat before and after exercise.
Kondoh Y, Kawase M, Ohmori S.

Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Okayama University, Japan.

Abstract
The purpose of this study was to investigate changes in the concentrations of D-lactate, L-lactate, pyruvate and methylglyoxal (MG) in body fluids after exercise. Eight untrained male students and five male students who were boat club members engaged in the exercise. Each subject performed runs of short and long duration. Compared to pre-exercise values plasma concentrations of D-lactate, L-lactate and pyruvate increased after running; in trained men by 3.6, 5.0, 3.4 times after short runs and by 1.5, 4.6, 2.0 times after long runs, and in untrained men by 3.0, 12.0, 1.6 times after short runs and 2.5, 5.6, 1.6 times after long runs, respectively. In all cases, the increase of L-lactate was always higher than that of D-lactate after running. The MG contents in red blood cells decreased markedly after running, especially in the untrained students. After short runs the MG concentration had decreased to 13% in the untrained men and 30% in the trained men, and after long runs the concentration had decreased to 41% in the untrained and 60% in the trained men. The MG in plasma and red blood cells appeared to have been utilized during relatively anaerobic exercise, especially by the untrained subjects. The D-lactate and related substances were also determined in urine, but the concentration of these substances showed no relationship to exercise. The D-lactate concentration in sweat samples tripled after short periods of running but the relative concentration to sodium ion concentration was not altered.(

 

[Marlène]

Burning chestpain running to the spine and feeling miserable

They differ from MENTAL exercise by the way ...

 

[glenp]

High blood pressure after exertion

 

[WillowJ]

burning pain in limbs is a near reaction; damp cough is a next-day (and may persist for a while) reaction.

some of it is hard to distinguish onset because PEM can build up. When I collapse, was it because of what I just did, or what I've been doing that week?

 

[taniaaust1]

I tend to think of malaise coming under flu like symptoms.

I had trouble with that poll and couldnt answer it properly as I get more top symptoms and the group of symptoms I get for my top symptoms after exercise, 4 of them dont stand out more then the other 4 I get too..

as i couldnt put in all 8 equal symptoms I just choose the 4 on that thing which were listed first there. If others are doing this too and cant choose, it may be why fatigue and muscle pain or being rated first and second as they are first and second on the order of the list.

I also think dizziness should of been listed on that list.. i do get more dizzy on standing after exercise .. but Im also dizzy on laying down after exercise. If you do another poll.. please change the order of the symptoms to see if that changes the responses and also add dizziness.

 

[taniaaust1]

I just thought of something else missing there.. there was one on this site who used to get mood issues eg depressive eposides after exercise so that is missing too. For this person, I think it was the symptom which bothered him the most after exercise... (I wonder whether mood or depressive issues after exercise are common or not? its not something ive heard many talk about).

 

[Merry]

I just thought of something else missing there.. there was one on this site who used to get mood issues eg depressive eposides after exercise so that is missing too. For this person, I think it was the symptom which bothered him the most after exercise... (I wonder whether mood or depressive issues after exercise are common or not? its not something ive heard many talk about).

Thanks, Tanya, for reminding me of this. One sign that I'm doing too much is that my mood starts to sink. If I rest, right away I cheer up.

 

[Cort]

Burning chestpain running to the spine and feeling miserable

They differ from MENTAL exercise by the way ...

Another facet of ME/CFS -what mental exercise does....they both burn up energy.......and there is the group that does worse with mental exercise than physical exercise...that is for another poll..

 

[Cort]

Thanks, Tanya, for reminding me of this. One sign that I'm doing too much is that my mood starts to sink. If I rest, right away I cheer up.

I too get really irritable.