Supplements and Drugs That Reduce or Prevent PEM (Post-Exertional Malaise)

[Learner1]

Not sure why it would, but anything is possible with mast cells! I use Thorne QBest and MitoQ and have no problems with either.

 

[keepswimming]

I'm interested to try taking a Q10 supplement but I'm confused and just don't know where to start!

Should I try ubiquinol or ubiquinone? What dosage should I start out at? Should I try taking it every day or just the days when I know I'm going to be over active (e.g. my working days).

I get that I will need to experiment to find out what works for me, but I just don't know where to start!

 

[Hip]

I'm interested to try taking a Q10 supplement but I'm confused and just don't know where to start!

If you look at the Q10 doses used by forum member SOC (see this thread and this), you can see she used a massive ubiquinone dose of 2400 mg.

If I were experimenting, I'd probably start at say 800 mg, and see how that goes. If there were benefits in reducing PEM, then I might consider increasing the dose to see if that decreases PEM further.

If using large doses like this, you may want to buy your Q10 as bulk powder rather than capsules, as this is cheaper. You can obtain excellent deals on Q10 powder on AliExpress in China, and also good prices at Pure Bulk in the US.

You can search Google for "Q10 bulk powder".

Should I try taking it every day or just the days when I know I'm going to be over active (e.g. my working days).

To save money, it may be best to just take the Q10 on days when you are going to be active. From what I can make out from patient reports on this thread, Q10 may be more of a PEM reliever than PEM shielder. In other words, if you start to take the Q10 once the PEM has arrived, it may mitigate or shorten the duration of the PEM (this is what is meant by a PEM reliever).

But you can also experiment to see if Q10 might work as a PEM shielder: in this case, you would take the Q10 on the same day as you exertion, just before you start engaging in activity, and see if the Q10 can actually prevent the PEM from manifesting in the first place.

 

[Learner1]

@keepswimming 800mg is a very high dose. A standard dose is 100-200mg. Ubiquinol is the best form. More is not necessarily better.

From WebMD:

What are the risks of taking CoQ10?

• Side effects from CoQ10 seem to be rare and mild. They include diarrhea, nausea, and heartburn.
• Risks. People with chronic diseases such as heart failure, kidney or liver problems, or diabetes should be wary of using this supplement. CoQ10 may lower blood sugar levels and blood pressure. Doses of more than 300 milligrams may affect liver enzyme levels.
• Interactions. People taking blood thinners and thyroid medications as well as chemotherapy should check with their doctors before using CoQ10 supplements.

Also, I would be very leery of buying bulk supplement powders over the internet coming from who knows where. My friend, who has worked for high quality supplement companies, has said her company tests every batch of raw ingredients coming into their factory and regularly find and reject shipments containing contaminated ingredients. Unless you have whatever you buy independently analyzed, you have no idea if you are getting what was advertised, or at the right dose, and no idea of purity. There have been a lot of issues with heavy metals, stimulants, and carcinogens like NDMA even in pharmaceuticals.

https://theconversation.com/natural...ot-even-have-the-specified-ingredients-131021

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safe...ate [12/4/2019,the counter or by prescription.

As we are already ill, the effects of these impurities could be disastrous. I only buy brands I trust, after investigating their practices thoroughly. For CoQ10, I take Thorne QBest and MitoQ (note the dosing is different for MitoQ). As for PEM, CoQ10 is only likely to help if you are deficient in CoQ10 - my testing says I'm high normal, do, though I take it as a foundation, it doesn't do anything for my PEM.

 

[Hip]

As for PEM, CoQ10 is only likely to help if you are deficient in CoQ10

That's not what SOC found. She found only very high doses of Q10 reduced her PEM. See her threads.

It's not correct to assume that when someone takes a supplement at a dose which satisfies their daily nutritional requirements, increasing the dose above that will have no further effects. Sometimes new effects are only achieved by going well beyond the recommended daily nutritional requirements.

In terms of the safety of high Q10 doses, according to this article:

Standard daily doses of CoQ10 range from 60 milligrams (mg) to 500 mg. The highest recommended dose is 1,200 mg. However, clinical trials have used dosages as high as 3,000 mg per day.

my testing says I'm high normal, do, though I take it as a foundation, it doesn't do anything for my PEM.

If you are only taking low doses of Q10, then you are not really following the protocol discovered by SOC. So therefore you have not properly tested this Q10 protocol for its possible PEM relieving effects.

 

[bensmith]

Q seems to make me feel better and worse. Might try a different brand like others are suggesting.

it’s like it hits me makes me feel crappy then maybe better sort of after the come up.

 

[Pyrrhus]

For me, personally, I started at 100mg ubiquinone per day. (This was the Kaneka formulation, which is apparently more bioavailable than other formulations.)

This gave me intense energy, and after 1-2 weeks it was clear that it was interfering with my sleep, leaving me groggy and unproductive.

So, I slowly lowered the dose until the negative effects on sleep disappeared.

I now take 13mg ubiquinone per day.

Hope this helps.

 

[Learner1]

That's not what SOC found. She found only very high doses of Q10 reduced her PEM. See her threads.

I really don't care what SOC is taking. She is not me, and does not have my genetics or my mitochondria. I need to take a dose that's right for me.

It's not correct to assume that when someone takes a supplement at a dose which satisfies their daily nutritional requirements, increasing the dose above that will have no further effects. Sometimes new effects are only achieved by going well beyond the recommended daily nutritional requirements.

Totally agree.

In terms of the safety of high Q10 doses, according to this article:

There are other articles that say differently. They say that 100 to 300 mg is a standard dose, or 100 to 200 mg. I almost quoted one of those but didn't. What matters is what works for a given individual.

If you are only taking low doses of Q10, then you are not really following the protocol discovered by SOC. So therefore you have not properly tested this Q10 protocol for its possible PEM relieving effects.

This is what my most recent testing says:

I'm hard pressed to see that going above this level will be more beneficial for me.

CoQ10 will help if one needs it. However, after a lot of experimentation, and informed by my testing which showed that I have huge oxidative stress, for me, I have found that adding Setria glutathione before and after exercise has helped me avoid and has helped me reverse PEM when it happens. I currently take 2.8 grams a day in two 1.4 gram doses. I also found that increasing ALA, A, and E had a positive effect on my energy. And that taking NMN first thing in the morning, as well as if my energy is dipping is helpful too. This all works If I have enough thyroid hormone and hydrocortisone in my body, not an excessive amount, just enough to bring me up to "normal."

in the past, I was short of isoleucine and leucine, and during that lengthy time period, I found that BCAAs taken with the glutathione helped PEM as well, But my testing in the past several months showed that I was replete in these amino acids, and so I was able to drop them, as they did not seem as effective as they had in the past.

So, while I'm very excited for SOC's success with CoQ10, there are many other factors that can lead to PEM and reverse PEM.

 

[Hip]

I have found that adding Setria glutathione before and after exercise has helped me avoid and has helped me reverse PEM when it happens. I currently take 2.8 grams a day in two 1.4 gram doses

So you are finding that glutathione is a both a PEM shielder as well as PEM reliever? Interesting. Would you be able to quantify how much this helps? For example, some people say that a particular PEM buster allows them to take one day off a PEM that would normally last two days.

Are you taking this glutathione orally? Oral glutathione is thought to have low bioavailability.

 

[Mary]

ELEVEN POSTS HAVE BEEN MOVED FROM THIS THREAD TO A NEW THREAD BECAUSE THEY WERE OFF-TOPIC:
Chronic diseases and nutritional deficiencies
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/chronic-diseases-and-nutritional-deficiencies.81812/
PLEASE CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION ABOUT NUTRITIONAL DISEASES AND SUPPLEMENTS IN THE FOREGOING THREAD

 

[Learner1]

So you are finding that glutathione is a both a PEM shielder as well as PEM reliever? Interesting. Would you be able to quantify how much this helps? For example, some people say that a particular PEM buster allows them to take one day off a PEM that would normally last two days.

Are you taking this glutathione orally? Oral glutathione is thought to have low bioavailability.

Yes, I am taking it orally. Works just fine. Worked within 15 minutes today. Typically, it restores me to "normal." It's not a question of lasting a day and wearing off, it seems to stop up the oxidative stress I've generated.

 

[bensmith]

Sorry if this answered b4.

if i take dribose and feel better. Can i do more or should i do the same.

 

[Hip]

if i take dribose and feel better. Can i do more or should i do the same.

Are you asking whether it's worth increasing the dose? That's something you can try; though you might want to check Google to see if there is a maximum recommended dose.

 

[bensmith]

Sorry i mean do i have more energy?

it feels like i do but do i? If that makes sense.

after dose can watch yiutube video, cant before. Confusing. Hoping its ok to increase energy.

 

[Learner1]

Sorry if this answered b4.

if i take dribose and feel better. Can i do more or should i do the same.

Yes, you can do a lot more.

 

[bensmith]

Ok thanks, ill increase dosing then.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Ok thanks, ill increase dosing then.

...Just be aware that some people find that high doses of Ribose can interfere with their sleep...

 

[bensmith]

No problems there except one nignt. But did really hurt my blood sugar. Maybe blood pressure too, take metropolo.

 

[Learner1]

No problems there except one nignt. But did really hurt my blood sugar. Maybe blood pressure too, take metropolo.

Do you need ribose? Are you taking it to make nicotinamide riboside? If so, you could take NAD+ or NMN instead, which would be a far more direct route...

 

[livinglighter]

Do you need ribose? Are you taking it to make nicotinamide riboside? If so, you could take NAD+ or NMN instead, which would be a far more direct route...

I recently started taking NAD+ and have found it very good for reducing mental tiredness. I think it may be working better the the ribose now. Is NMN better or does it work in the same way as NAD+? I was just about to buy more ribose and NAD+ (quite expensive) and saw your post.