Sticky blood & inflammation question

[Cinders66]

Hi

i live in the UK. There was recently a Half hour program on radio four which is an intellectual radio station, a science program, discussing a problem seeming to be coming through with Covid which was contributing to their blood clotting issues, the issue of the blood becoming stickier.

They seemEd to say that the viral infection itself was causing the blood to become stickier and I think from memory they were saying that it was actually a consequence of inflammation.

for ME I’m pretty sure I remember there being indication that Our blood with thick and sticky (separate toThe Deformation of blood cells which is another issue) and I was wondering have I remembered that correctly and was there ever any reasoning as to why we have sticky blood? could it be an indication that we likewise have inflammation as the cause of it or infection as the cause of it? and I just wondered what anyone thoughts were because I do think we are supposed to have sticky blood but i cannot remember suggestions as to why.

Regarding inflammation, I’ve always understood it to be something hypothesised about rather something proven in ME because we are waiting for that type of research that shows it but it does seem that in Both Covid and long Covid people already saying “this is because of inflammation“ so is that because it’s obvious from the symptom & post mortem presentation or because they’re having studies that clearly show inflammation we haven’t got or we haven’t had their studies? Thanks

 

[choochoo]

They are treating covid-19 inflammation with baracitinib.

 

[choochoo]

It is an arthritis drug with powerful anti-inflammatory properties.

 

[Wishful]

Regarding inflammation, I’ve always understood it to be something hypothesised about rather something proven in ME

I think some studies found clear evidence of cerebral inflammation (localized elevated temperature). If ME is a neurological disease, then markers for inflammation in the blood--or the absence there--may not be meaningful.

 

[choochoo]

After years of seeing countless neurologists virologists and epidemiologists, I suggest the odds are in favour of cfs / ME being neurological. In my view the key problem is autonomic in nature.

I, and several other ME sufferers ( that I have met in person ) suffer from visual snow ( VS syndrome ) since the onset of severe ME. This condition is a lot more common in ME than most people ( and I include world renowned ME doctors ) think.

Visual snow is almost certainly neurological in nature and nearly always occurs simultaneously with tinnitus unremitting pressure type headaches and dysphagia ( a slow swallow ). It usually one of the last symptoms to appear in full blown severe ME. This condition is deemed neurolgical by nearly all of the world's top opthalmologists. The reason not so much is known about it within the ME community is, by the time it shows itself the sufferer will probably have a myriad of other symptoms. And as VS causes no pain ( but is at best a nuisance) it comes near the bottom of the list of disabling symtoms ( although it is disturbing when it first appears.

The eyes and vision upon close inspection and study can tell us more about neurolgical problems that virtually any other indicators. They are the window to the brain and central nervous system. Keratoconus ( misshapen cornea/s ) through defective collagen production is also common in both EDS and VS ( i have it in both eyes ).

 

[Wishful]

I had to look up visual snow. I don't think I have that (do have tinnitus), but my abundance of floaters is like being surrounded by flying insects. Very annoying.

 

[choochoo]

Visual snow is tinnitus of the vision ( if that makes sense ) and VS ( broadband ) is exactly like an untuned old TV. Visual static covers a sufferers entire field of vision. It appears like a superimposed image of small dots ( usually white or silver) in front of whatever is being looked at. It becomes more obvious in dimly lit conditions or darkness. Sufferers are usually night blind, but no vitamin deficiency is present and no actual damage to the eye can be detected. There is effective treatment.

 

[Pyrrhus]

They are treating covid-19 inflammation with baracitinib.

It is an arthritis drug with powerful anti-inflammatory properties.

Strong anti-inflammatories seem to decrease mortality in the most severe life-threatening COVID cases.

But they may not be appropriate for less severe cases, where the immunosuppression from a strong anti-inflammatory might worsen viral recovery.

Possibly related thread:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...hort-term-but-may-not-in-the-long-term.80492/

(Apologies if this is off-topic.)

 

[pattismith]

I had to look up visual snow. I don't think I have that (do have tinnitus), but my abundance of floaters is like being surrounded by flying insects. Very annoying.

now with ageing, I got floaters from vitreous retraction, I don't think it has any relation to neuroinflammation though.

 

[Sushi]

for ME I’m pretty sure I remember there being indication that Our blood with thick and sticky (separate toThe Deformation of blood cells which is another issue) and I was wondering have I remembered that correctly and was there ever any reasoning as to why we have sticky blood? could it be an indication that we likewise have inflammation as the cause of it or infection as the cause of it? and I just wondered what anyone thoughts were because I do think we are supposed to have sticky blood but i cannot remember suggestions as to why.

Yep, see:

David Berg

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David Berg, M.S., was the Director and Cofounder, with Lois Hill Berg, of HEMEX Laboratories before he retired and sold it. He was a medical technologist with a graduate degree in clinical pathology and laboratory medicine, who specialized in the hypercoagulation of blood in infertility, as well as, CFS, fibromyalgia, and Gulf War Illness.
Berg and Joseph Brewer studied coagulation in CFS patients and concluded that approximately 85% of chronic fatigue syndrome patients had hypercoagulation, i.e., the tendency for blood to clot too much, possibly from lower serum levels.[1] He reported that a significant percentage of people obtain remission from anti-coagulation therapy combined with anti-infection therapy.

I had the test from Hemex lab, showed hyper coagulation and benefitted from several months of heparin injections. Berg did hypothesized that viral infections played a role.

 

[valentinelynx]

I got floaters from vitreous retraction

It's awful, isn't it?! I have two distinct Weiss rings that float and gyrate right in the middle of my visual fields in both eyes. Sometimes I think they are little creatures running across the carpet or whatever. (Weiss rings are floaters that occur when the vitreous pulls away from the retina and leaves a circle where the optic nerve had passed through the back of the vitreous). These and other large floaters are particularly annoying when I'm using a computer, because they block my ability to read text clearly.

 

[Cinders66]

Thanks everyone. Interesting regarding the blood.

it’s puzzling to me how longcovid has immediately been explained by some as inflammation (although people are now saying it’s like CFS) and yet in the UK at least there’s No acceptance Of physical cause For ME or widely used explanation for our symptoms. Afaik the inflammation evidence from raised temperature stuff in the brain (jarred younger) is needing replication, same for lactate? . Afail there’s no hard evidence of inflammation either neuro or systemic in ME, or treatment to given although It might be different in countries, I’m in a country that still treats it Primarily behaviourally/symptom relief only.
I wonder is it obviously inflammation but just denied in the way of general ME denial, but when pwLC get fatigue it’s suddenly obviously inflammation?

 

[choochoo]

Yep, see:
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/David_Berg
I had the test from Hemex lab, showed hyper coagulation and benefitted from several months of heparin injections. Berg did hypothesized that viral infections played a role.

Hi, did your symptoms improve during heprin trial?

 

[Pyrrhus]

I wonder is it obviously inflammation but just denied in the way of general ME denial, but when pwLC get fatigue it’s suddenly obviously inflammation?

Excellent question. It's not obviously inflammation in ME, it's a more subtle type of inflammation called neuroinflammation. Since neuroinflammation is a relatively new concept, there is a lot of confusion at the moment.

For more information on this state of affairs:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...n-in-me-subcortical-brain.80923/#post-2289868

Hope this helps.

 

[Wishful]

Afaik the inflammation evidence from raised temperature stuff in the brain (jarred younger) is needing replication

Yes, and it's hard to get funding for replication. Properly-processed EEGs have been shown in studies to be effective at diagnosing ME as far back as 1990, and two later studies had the same result, but no one seems to be funding development of that. So, the lack of replicated results doesn't really mean much.

 

[Sushi]

Hi, did your symptoms improve during heprin trial?

That was about 25 years ago so it is hard to remember! I think it was just across the board feeling better.

 

[Booble]

I get that visual snow. Usually I get the more common scintillating scotoma (like the aura before a headache, but without the headache) but sometimes I get the visual snow. Which is even scarier than the SS -- except it goes away quicker.

Interesting about the "sticky blood." I have not heard of that.

 

[pattismith]

Heparin and LMWH have shown to be life saver against covid, and this september article explains benefits from these drugs. It may explain why we may benefit from it either:

Abstract

Coronavirus disease-2019 (COVID-19) is associated with severe inflammation in mainly the lung, and kidney.

Reports suggest a beneficial effect of the use of heparin/low molecular weight heparin (LMWH) on mortality in COVID-19.

In part, this beneficial effect could be explained by the anticoagulant properties of heparin/LMWH.

Here, we summarise potential beneficial, non-anticoagulant mechanisms underlying treatment of COVID-19 patients with heparin/LMWH, which include:
(i) Inhibition of heparanase activity, responsible for endothelial leakage;
(ii) Neutralisation of chemokines, and cytokines;
(iii) Interference with leukocyte trafficking;
(iv) Reducing viral cellular entry, and
(v) Neutralisation of extracellular cytotoxic histones.

Considering the multiple inflammatory and pathogenic mechanisms targeted by heparin/LMWH, it is warranted to conduct clinical studies that evaluate therapeutic doses of heparin/LMWH in COVID-19 patients. In addition, identification of specific heparin-derived sequences that are functional in targeting non-anticoagulant mechanisms may have even higher therapeutic potential for COVID-19 patients, and patients suffering from other inflammatory diseases.

 

[pattismith]

Yep, see:
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/David_Berg
I had the test from Hemex lab, showed hyper coagulation and benefitted from several months of heparin injections. Berg did hypothesized that viral infections played a role.

Sushi, did you notice improvement of all your symptoms or only some of them?
Also do you remember the daily heparin dosage you got?

 

[Sushi]

Sushi, did you notice improvement of all your symptoms or only some of them?
Also do you remember the daily heparin dosage you got?

It was a long time ago, but as I remember the improvement was across the board. I don’t remember the dose but it was low molecular weight heparin, 2 injections per day into belly fat.