Starting Water Fast. Would love to speak to anyone who has performed One

[Roy S]

The study on 2- 4 day water only fasts is really interesting.

A Google search for "prolonged fasting 're-boots' immune system" produced a number of results including this one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...enerate-entire-immune-system-study-finds.html

I'm wondering how frequent those fasts are in the study.

 

[MCRobbie]

Hi Roy, I think the journalist is being a little loose with her language and I don't think professor Longo is making the claim for an entire rebuild of the immune system. Ive read this in a few places and I think its mistaken. I know he would say there is evidence of new immune cells being built from stem cells, how many and which ones he doesn't make clear in the articles though I haven't read the original paper. I saw an interview where someone asked him how the mouse study length of fast would translate to humans and he said "atleast 4-5 days" suggesting that he thought longer fasts could be beneficial and have a greater effect.

 

[Valentijn]

Well again Valentijn, our illness is very complex, does this mean that because our illness is complex that no one should experiment with all kinds of different protocols that could help?

Not when there's a realistic risk of harm. And considering the reactions a lot of ME patients here seem to get just from going more than two hours without eating, I'd think a fast would be something to approach with extreme caution. In that situation, any side effects should treated with serious respect, not brushed aside as somehow being a positive experience.

It's also a bit mystifying that someone would think deprivation of calories and nutrients would somehow be helpful with a debilitating illness. It certainly has never been shown scientifically to be of any benefit to ME patients, and I doubt there's much (if any) research showing benefit in other illnesses.

How many CFS sufferers have experienced side effects from the Methylation protocols? Does this mean no one should attempt those protocols because some have suffered side effects complications?

Rather few. There are a bunch of other people in the B12 subforum who try the protocol or specifically joint the forum to post regarding the problems they are having with it. At any event, anyone telling them to push through nasty symptoms is likely to get a telling off. Suggestions on compensating for or avoiding problematic symptoms is common, however: take potassium, switch B12 forms, take some B3, etc etc. No one's telling anyone to ignore negative symptoms, and if you do see someone doing that you should probably flag their post.

Don't we all take chances when we try any protocol or put any supplement in our bodies? By your logic none of us should try anything or decide to 'push through' any uncomfortableness or side effect when that's not whats actually happening.

Intelligent chances, I'd like to think. Weighing the risks (usually tiny, for supplements) versus benefits (variable). A fast involves high risk for no likely benefit. That's a mixture of desperation and ignorance, not "taking a chance".

People are pushing through everyday with their protocols, tweaking them, experimenting and often pushing through using their own judgment. Many of us are doing exactly what you are suggesting they not do , they are 'sticking it out' using their own judgement.

And how exactly would you meaningfully tweak a fast? Drink more water? Stop fasting?

Should we all consult a physician to advise us everytime whether we should continue to move forward with a protocol or not? You have such great faith in physicians, most of which dont know anything about our illness. In most cases we are on our own with this illness and often know more than our doctors about it.

Yes, we should consult a doctor when doing something with a relatively high risk involved for very sick people. Sound medical judgement regarding a fast doesn't require special knowledge of ME beyond that it is a debilitating disease with an intense metabolic component.

Who is advocating pushing through in this particular case? Im pushing through a very common side effect in my own case. I am not advocating in a thread where someone else is fasting to push through in their fast am I? No Im not.

You seem to be advocating that it's safe for ME patients in general to push through symptoms triggered by a fast. Or are you a special case somehow?

 

[Valentijn]

@Valentijn, Someone in this thread was advocating to Me that I stop my fast, just like that, a fast which is very important to me and which I have been planning for many months, at a time when I am at a critical crossroads with my own CFS.

What critical crossroads is that? And these are public forums, not private conversations, where people are going to share their experiences for ME patients in general. If you want a soapbox instead of a potential discussion, you might want to try blogging instead - the forum has a utility for it.

If you feel it is bad form to tell someone to push through in a protocol (which I have not done) doesn't the same logic apply, that it may be bad form to tell someone to........Stop........a protocol when that person is making a suggestion based on so little information, and regarding a 'side effect' that many experts consider par for the course and nothing to worry about?

Those experts aren't your doctors, nor are they likely the doctors of anyone else here. They are not qualified to give medical advice to patients they have never met, and you aren't qualified to relay that advice on their supposed behalf.

 

[MCRobbie]

"It's also a bit mystifying that someone would think deprivation of calories and nutrients would somehow be helpful with a debilitating illness. It certainly has never been shown scientifically to be of any benefit to ME patients, and I doubt there's much (if any) research showing benefit in other illnesses."

This is quite a stunning statement Valentijn and belies your ignorance of research on fasting. Im not going to spend the next day and a half providing you sources of which there are hundreds showing how calorie and nutrient restriction benefits the body in myriads of ways both in animal studies and human studies, and well only about probably 1000, 000 anectdotal reports from fasters over the course of a century who report healing from all manner of illnesses some of them very serious. I really cant believe youre making this statement.

How can you also possibly make the argument about "realistic risk of harm" when we know so little about the illness itself and exactly whats going on in our bodies that we have little specifics oftentimes about whether a protocol will even cause harm or not. Some people have profound negative expriences to a supplement without having any idea before trying the supplement what the potential affect will be harmful or otherwise. Are you so smart that you think you can anticipate what the potential harm will be for many of these protocols when the illness is so complicated that we simply cannot know what a response will be? The fact that so many CFS sufferers respond SO differently to the same protocol or supplement makes your argument unsupportable.

And you have the Audacity to question my statement that I am at a crossroads with my illness and I need to justify it........to you? This is breathtakingly arrogant and rude. Who do you think you are? You claim that such statements are only appropriate to be made in private conversation and shouldn't be made in a public forum and if someone does so they are on a soapbox? There are hundreds of thousands of 'public' posts where people are expressing their frustration, their despair, their grief, their sorrow about their illness. You are pretty sick and sanctimonious to tell me I need to justify my crossroads comment to you and that anyone who makes a similar comment is on a soabox. How chillingly uncompassionate and judgemental. I am not going to dignify that comment beyond this.

Ill say it again, I have not in any forum post advised someone to 'push through' a protocol. Ive never done it and haven't done it in this post. A point you keep ignoring, not surprisingly.

 

[Esther12]

It's up to everyone to make their own choices, but I'd be naturally pretty cautious with this sort of thing. Best wishes to all... hope @MCRobbie is taking good care of themselves while in a weakened state and has something delicious and nutritious available for when snack desires take over. I can go pretty weird if I miss just one meal.

 

[MCRobbie]

@ Valentinjn. You didn't answer my question directed to you whether you felt it was bad form for someone to tell someone to Stop a protocol, in this forum. Its not an expert or physician who advised me to stop my fast, it was a member of PhoenixRising. If this person is a physician or expert they did not inform me of this. So you didn't answer my question at all but tried to sidestep it by bringing up something completely irrelevant.

 

[MCRobbie]

Hi Esther, thanks for the nice words. Rest assured Ive got a whole smorgasbord of wonderful food I cant wait to eat when I break my fast. Thanks!

Though I think its clear by now that Valentinjn hopes my first meal after my fast has poison in it.

 

[Roy S]

I agree with you that the journalist embellished the story. She is the same one that embellished the latest PACE story.

I'd also like to read the paper; especially because it looks like the stories were written based on a press release. But it's great to see this study with some modern science.

I've been trying to remember anything relevant I learned and experienced three decades ago. I do recall thinking more clearly afterward. Maybe I need to fast to clear out the cobwebs between my ears.

My tongue never cleared and I decided it would probably have been better if I did a somewhat shorter fast 2 times (or more). 30 days was probably a bit long for me at that time. I got quite weak the last few days.

They told me it would take the equivalent of the time it takes to recover from major surgery to get back to normal after the fast. It did take quite a while but I got back to substantially better than normal for me. That was fun while it lasted.
　
　
　

 

[MCRobbie]

Interesting Roy that your tongue never cleared. Ive read so many fasting reports where sometimes it clears and other times it never clears but sometimes clears when people start refeeding. Mine is going strong and my hunch is that its not going to clear.

 

[MCRobbie]

@Valentijn. I suggest you take just a brief amount of time to google all the studies on fasting showing that fasting has improved cases of Diabetes 2, including advanced cases, or the ones showing that fasting has improved myriads of cardiovascular markers in those with heart disease, or the studies showing fasting reduced blood pressure in those with high blood pressure, or the study Roy refers to in which they fasted cancer patients receiving chemotherapy and the fasting improved their response to chemotherapy. I could go on and on and on as to the number of studies showing improvement in all manner of illnesses. Please just do a little research before you say something so ignorant.

I also find it interesting that you clearly haven't read any literature on fasting at all and it appears don't even have any interest in it. I started a post on fasting after starting a fast and doing months of research on fasting because I wanted to talk to others about their experiences fasting...........and YET.........you have SO much to say in this thread even though you have little interest in the subject and clearly don't know much about it. Who is on the soapbox here? Who is the one expressing their arrogance?

 

[brenda]

I have to go along with Valentijn here, and say that l think it could very well be harmful for a person who has all of their bodily systems very messed up, not as in other illnesses, and very likely severe deficiencies due to leaky gut. This illness is potentially much more complicated than the ones you have mentioned and l just can't see fasting useful here in general though of course some might be helped.

 

[Roy S]

It's also a bit mystifying that someone would think deprivation of calories and nutrients would somehow be helpful with a debilitating illness.

Valentijn, I suggest you at least learn something about fasting before making statements like that.

 

[MCRobbie]

Brenda, I started a post on Fasting and wanted to speak to others about their fasting experience. If you feel its potentially harmful then don't do it. Should members of this forum not be able to discuss any protocol which some might feel dangerous? Is that really what the protocol should be on Phoenix Rising. Do you know how potentially dangerous it is to go on AMpligen even if you are being monitored by the best of doctors? Its a very dangerous drug and yet CFS sufferers are making the choice to go on it even though there are serious risks. Should those persons not be able to discuss Ampligen on this site because it is potentially dangerous? If we get to this point then maybe a wonderful forum like this should be shut down.......if we cant discuss protocols that some people may be fearful of.

You also said in your reply that you feel some people might be helped by it. But I guess we shouldn't discuss it even if you feel this way.

 

[brenda]

Woah, chill man! I never implied that it should not be discussed. I think you need a big fat steak.

 

[MCRobbie]

That's one of the foods on my list when I break my fast Brenda. Its good advice thank you!

 

[MCRobbie]

Brenda heres another idea. So many of us experiment with protocols and supplements not knowing what the response is going to be. Would you think it unreasonable for someone to start a fast, go without food for a day or two and see how one feels? Experiment a little? Or is that too dangerous or too irresponsible? I do think its important (though Valentinjn will no doubt criticize me for saying this because, egatz Im not a doctor!,) to monitor one particularl thing at the least while fasting and that is electrolytes. I made sure at the least I had a doctor on board to monitor them and I am doing so every week. Not being a doctor or an expert though I guess I shouldn't say this. Valentinjn would feel it incredibly irresponsible and arrogant.

 

[Roy S]

For some reason I'm recalling that I encountered considerable resistance to my doing any fasting from just about everybody...

including the first two other ME patients I met and had gotten to know over the previous several years. That is... until they started doing fasts themselves...
　
　
　
　

 

[MCRobbie]

Do you know how they responded Roy?

 

[MCRobbie]

@Valentijn. You said "Those experts aren't your doctors, nor are they likely the doctors of anyone else here. They are not qualified to give medical advice to patients they have never met, and you aren't qualified to relay that advice on their supposed behalf."

This is the most sanctimonious piece of rubbish Ive heard in a very long time on this site. Talk about getting on the soap box. You ought to be embarrassed by that one.