SPINA THYR a research tool to evaluate thyroid function, deiodinases activity, TH resistance

[Iritu1021]

I have not tried triac. I tried T2 and it sent my HR through the roof. There are many other ways to monitor thyroid besides HR and T. I go by my mood, thought clarity, eyelid puffiness, hair dryness, nail bed perfusion, skin dryness, lip fullness, nasal congestion, ankle reflexes, eyelid lag. I think we all have our individual signs and it's a matter of paying close attention and eventually you learn how to read your body's hormonal states like a sheet of music

Regarding our iodine discussion - I'm not touching that stuff again. I now suspect that iodine is my "thyroid crack". It gives me a short term boost of energy through rise of GT but I think it decreases GD and leaves me with higher T4/T3 ratio and higher anti-TPO Abs. In fact, I now think the main benefit I had from lithium on my GD was through iodine blockade.

Kenneth Blanchard MD strikes me as the most sane voice in everything alternative I read about thyroid. He describes "on and off" phenomenon of people going on T3, feeling better short term and then ending up with T4 deficit which lowers tissue reserve and affects brain function. The same is true when people go on T4 and lose some of their endogenous thyroid T3 and get lower GD due to drop in TSH. Maybe T3 alone works for "pure" euthyroid syndrome but I didn't find it useful as long term solution for myself because I have primary thyroid dysfunction. I'm now working on finding my perfect T4/T3 balance. Right now I'm taking 25 mcg T4 and 0.4 mcg slow release T3 per Blanchard's protocol which closely mimics physiological ratio that a healthy thyroid would produce. I also take selenium to increase my T4 to T3 conversion, and I'm going to try to limit iodine in my diet, or maybe add a tiny bit lithium orotate again.

 

[frozenborderline]

I have not tried triac. I tried T2 and it sent my HR through the roof. There are many other ways to monitor thyroid besides HR and T. I go by my mood, thought clarity, eyelid puffiness, hair dryness, nail bed perfusion, skin dryness, lip fullness, nasal congestion, ankle reflexes, eyelid lag. I think we all have our individual signs and it's a matter of paying close attention and eventually you learn how to read your body's hormonal states like a sheet of music

Regarding our iodine discussion - I'm not touching that stuff again. I now suspect that iodine is my "thyroid crack". It gives me a short term boost of energy through rise of GT but I think it decreases GD and leaves me with higher T4/T3 ratio and higher anti-TPO Abs. In fact, I now think the main benefit I had from lithium on my GD was through iodine blockade.

Kenneth Blanchard MD strikes me as the most sane voice in everything alternative I read about thyroid. He describes "on and off" phenomenon of people going on T3, feeling better short term and then ending up with T4 deficit which lowers tissue reserve and affects brain function. The same is true when people go on T4 and lose some of their endogenous thyroid T3 and get lower GD due to drop in TSH. Maybe T3 alone works short-term for euthyroid syndrome but I didn't find it useful as long term solution for myself. I'm now working on finding my perfect T4/T3 balance. Right now I'm taking 25 mcg T4 and 0.4 mcg slow release T3 per Blanchard's protocol and mimics physiological ratio.

wow how do you get a T3 dose that low?


Well, I guess I may try that but I'm going to start with a dose of 3 mcg, but not raise it... I'm pretty committed to that. Seems like issues arise from raising it. either it's going to work at a physiological dose or it won't

 

[Iritu1021]

I had it compounded at 1 mcg and I'm dumping 2/3 of the capsule. If you can't afford that, you could try to get 1/4 grain Armour pill and just take a tiny chip of that. One pill has about 2.2 mcg so gauge accordingly.

 

[Iritu1021]

I had it compounded at 1 mcg and I'm dumping 2/3 of the capsule. If you can't afford that, you could try to get 1/4 grain Armour pill and just take a tiny chip of that. One pill has about 2.2 mcg so gauge accordingly.

p.s. my hope is that it's all about outer/inner ring derivative balance which can also be viewed as even/odd numbered thyroid derivatives, so if T4/T3 are in the right balance then the rest of them - like T3, triac, T1AM - will follow naturally.

 

[Iritu1021]

I just got my hair test results today and it looks like my poor response to iodine may have something to do with my severe vanadium deficiency that it revealed.

Effect of vanadium, iodine and their interaction on growth, blood variables, liver trace elements and thyroid status indices in rats.
Uthus EO1, Nielsen FH.
Author information

Abstract
A two-factor, two-by-three factorially arranged experiment was performed to ascertain whether iodine affects the response of rats to vanadium deprivation. Male weanling Wistar-Kyoto rats were fed a 16% casein 68% acid-washed ground corn diet for 8 weeks. The variables were supplemental vanadium at 0 or 1 microgram/g and supplemental iodine at 0, 0.33 or 25 micrograms/g. Vanadium deprivation increased thyroid weight and thyroid weight/body weight ratio and decreased the concentration of vanadium in liver. Vanadium and iodine interacted such that, as dietary iodine was increased, plasma glucose increased in the vanadium-deficient rats but decreased in the vanadium-supplemented rats. Also, as dietary iodine was increased, thyroid peroxidase activity decreased; the decrease was more marked in the vanadium-supplemented than the vanadium-deprived rats. The findings suggest that vanadium may have a physiological role affecting iodine metabolism and thyroid function.

 

[frozenborderline]

excuse me but what the fuck is vanadium lol. sorry but there's just always another thing to think about re: nutrition/illness and my brain is glitching out

 

[Iritu1021]

It's a trace mineral. I don't think we know for sure what it does exactly but it appears to be important for thyroid function, oxidation, energy storage and glucose metabolism.

I suspect that a lot of modern illness has something to do with trace element depletion due to soil depletion and shift toward drinking filtered water. They need to be balanced with each other in order for the body to work properly. Iodine intake seemingly needs to be balanced by lithium and vanadium and vice versa. (The lithium part I have confirmed on myself in the past experimentally, we'll see now about vanadium).

Iodine, lithium, vanadium, chromium, selenium, molybdenum - those are all important trace minerals that come to mind. Rubidium and organic germanium are even less understood but have been shown by some to have powerful effects on health.

 

[Iritu1021]

excuse me but what the fuck is vanadium lol. sorry but there's just always another thing to think about re: nutrition/illness and my brain is glitching out

This is from my hair analysis report:
Vanadium (V) is typically found at low levels in hair and the clinical significance of the measured
result of lower than average hair V is not known. V is measured in hair for research purposes
because it has been postulated to be an essential microtrace element. Indirect data to support
this postulate have been derived from experimental models. Suggested functions for V include:
regulation of sodium-potassium-ATPase, intracellular glutathione metabolism, thyroid metabolism,
and insulin mimetic effects at pharmacological doses.
Average dietary V intake varies considerably between 20 mcg to 2 mg. Food sources of V
include: liver, fish, radishes, grains, nuts, and vegetable oils.

 

[Lolinda]

Are official recommendations for iodine enough for overall health, not only thyroid?
- My conclusion what I do

On the previous pages of this thread, there was discussion on iödine intakes. Summary: The core problem is that the iodine recommendations of 100-199 µg are made merely to prevent goiter, hypothyroidism and "impaired mental function".
There is research pointing to variousest extrathyroidal tissues needing iodine. There is good support for salivary glands and sweat glands. For a long list of other tissues there are hints from research that could prove true or false tomorrow. A study relating iodine intakes to a broad list of health concerns is what would be needed. (Btw, this was actually undertaken, see the attached file. It concluded that higher intakes are indeed beneficial. However, the quality of that study is so crappy that I ignore it.)

So what to do when we don't know a thing but there are chances? My conclusion on what I will do:

1. Safety first:
- "National Institutes of Health guidelines say the safe upper limit for adults is 1,100 micrograms of iodine per day."
- Conclusion of a Chinese study: "people — at least in China — should get no more than 800 micrograms a day". These Chinese might have higher sensitivity because of deficiencies before or early in life.

2. Safety second: make sure selenium is sufficient and go slow
- A whooping 10% developed autoimmune thyroiditis after a mere correction of iodine deficiency
- studies have shown that selenium protects against the effects of iodine toxicity and prevents the triggering and flaring of autoimmune disease that excess iodine without selenium can cause
- I often trust Chris Kresser:
"I start my patients with kelp tablets that contain 325 mcg of iodine per tablet and increasing very slowly over time. As I’ve described in this article, it’s crucial that you also take 200 mcg of selenium per day during this protocol to protect against the potentially adverse effects of iodine supplementation, especially if you have autoimmune thyroid disease."

3. Safety third: control regularly for thyroid hormones and thyroid antibodies
- Subclinical hypothyroidism (Wolff-Chaikoff effect) was the warning sign for which researchers looked in a study in which people took doses of up to 2000 µg per day.
- These are the antibodies researchers use to test for problems in iodine studies:
Antithyroid antibodies (antithyroid peroxidase [TPO] and/or antithyroglobulin [Tg])

4. With all these precautions, I aim for the lowest safe limit, that is, 800 µg urinary excretion per day. This needs to be measured a few times: multiple collections of 24-hour urinary iodine are preferable to estimate intake in individuals

5. I am currently already in the process of increasing kelp. The challenging question is, how to know if I earned any benefit?
Unfortunately (or fortunately! ) the potentially improvable organs are almost the whole body: mammary glands, stomach mucosa, salivary glands, ovaries, thymus gland, skin, brain, joints, arteries and bone
Potentially improvable functions are:
- desinfection of gland secretions
- phagocytosis
- apoptosis as for example in cancer cells

6. Is it really worth to try? In my case:
- I have very bad problems in the gut that defied all attempts to eradicate and that almost killed me. Long story... the probable cause is pathogenic biofilms. Indication: The biofilm disruptors nattokinase and lactoferrin are well-known for causing bad Herx. I get that, really bad. More indication: I have a fancy cytokine profile matching a study on body reactions to biofilms. Happily, iodine is effective against biofilms. Typically, desinfectant metals are impossible to develop resistance to. ➞ Iodine could be really cool for getting rid of biofilms. And I tolerate it!!
- In the thymus and in the bone marrow, immune cells are selected before they are released into the body to fight: the ones causing harm to self are signalled to apoptose. Apoptosis needs iodine. All this could make sense for a benefit from elevated iodine intakes for me: my aberrant immune reactions (to lots of food) and my autoimmune-like problems (neuropathy and tendon sheaths) could disappear. If this should work, it will take up to a year because immune cells can live that long. - This is a first idea that I have not yet researched in detail. Please contradict!

 

[frozenborderline]

I wanted to start with T3 instead of T3/T4, just to see if I got a moderate effect. I took about an 8th of a cynomel tablet last night, with food (should be around 3.5 mcg). I chewed it.
This was at about 1:30-2 AM. The symptoms I had been experiencing before i took the T3 were muscle pain/lactic acid feeling, which I've been getting more and more often recently.
The cynomel was having very little or no effect for the first hour. I had a cup of black tea which is standard for me to alleviate symptoms before bed. After about an hour and a half I felt some relaxation and lightness in a way that was pleasant and it felt like beyond placebo, an unfamiliar sensation. I laid down in bed. I felt relaxed but couldn't sleep for some reason. Started to get a mild headache. The headache got a little more intense but was blunt, not sharp pain, felt like having a fever. I felt overly hot, felt sort of nauseous, not quite like puking, but it reminded me of having a fever. By 5 am, I still couldn't sleep, drank some water... It felt like my body was rejecting something (not necessarily the thyroid). Eventually it wore off and I passed out for 7 hours, woke up with a similar feeling of sickness/achiness in head.


The times on all this are a little bit approximate.

I was really hoping that thyroid would help with my CFS as I've tried pretty much every other intervention Peat has recommended without much success.

However, no interventions by any doctors have helped either, so even in the worst case, Peat's work is just as helpful as anything else :/.

 

[Iritu1021]

@Lolinda, another possible way of monitoring iodine deficiency is by measuring thyroglobulin level.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24762031

 

[Lolinda]

What is really the problem with selenium??

I wonder why Selenomethionine, Chelated Selenium (aminoacid pool) or any other chelated mineral cause me horrible brain fog. The only form I tolerate is Selenium glycinate (or Zn glycinate).

I wonder equally about selenium! In my case: I tolerate selenium yeast. Strangely, however, if I take too much, I get speedy. So I had to increase extremely slowly and I pay attention to not go over an equivalent of 100µg selenium.

Btw an interesting bit on selenium: apparently there are people who feel the deficiency:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine_in_biology
During the production of thyroid hormones, hydrogen peroxide is produced, high Iodine in the absence of selenium destroys the thyroid gland (often felt as a sore throat feeling), the peroxides are neutralized through the production of glutathione from selenium.


Other topic: I just wanted to thank for this:

@Lolinda, another possible way of monitoring iodine deficiency is by measuring thyroglobulin level.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24762031

I never looked at thyroglobulin so far! - I found a recent labs:
thyroglobulin: 3.0 µg/L (1.6-60)


Other topic: trace elements

excuse me but what the fuck is vanadium lol. sorry but there's just always another thing to think about re: nutrition/illness and my brain is glitching out

Hey man, you say it! So so often I had this feeling during my illness... Care about this, about that and about yetanother brainf*cking whatnot? But then I usually succumb to "a crazy disease needs a crazy solution otherwise those dumbass doctors would have already found it..." and I try the next thing, too

Iodine intake seemingly needs to be balanced by lithium and vanadium and vice versa. (The lithium part I have confirmed on myself in the past experimentally, we'll see now about vanadium).
...
Iodine, lithium, vanadium, chromium, selenium, molybdenum -

Just an idea if anyone interested in vanadium, lithium ... etc:
seaweed has tons of such trace elements. For example, I saved somewhere a study that some sort of weed sold in every Japanese grocery has more lithium than OTC lithium supplement pills. If anyone interested I may still be able to dig it out.

 

[Iritu1021]

You bring up an excellent point @Lolinda. I tried to explain the different effect I feel from iodide and iodine through their different effects but since the iodine I take came from kelp, it could be that the other trace minerals in kelp provided for the "smoother effect" I was referring to.

When I did my hair mineral analysis for the first time four years ago I had excess iodine and severe lithium deficiency and I was in sympathetic overdrive. I feel that lithium shifted me into parasympathetic state, maybe even too much so. I like the boost I get from the iodine but my anti-TPO antibodies went up and I already have constantly sore throat so I may be one of those Hashimoto patients who can't tolerate it.

Strangely, my thyroglobulin is only 0.3! That's almost like in someone without thyroid function. Granted, I take supplemental T4 but only 25 mcg (wasn't taking any T3 when I tested for it) so I can't explain why all my thyroglobulin disappeared. I do have low level antibodies against it but very low, I doubt it would be enough to bind all of it.

The other thing I can't explain is why my TSH goes up when I take micro-doses of T3. When I was on NDT, no matter how much I took, I could never push my T3 always seemed to revert back to 3.1 in the morning - I could never get past that number. My TSH was suppressed back then. But only 0.3 mcg of slow release T3 was enough to raise my fT3 from 2.9 to 3.7 and my TSH actually went up on it instead of down - not at all according to what science would expect it to do!

It's a paradox that I can't explain... I agree with you guys, this illness is so f*ucking confusing!

 

[Gondwanaland]

When I did my hair mineral analysis for the first time four years ago I had excess iodine

High iodine in hair analysis means that you are loosing iodine = lack of co-factors and/or poor enzymatic affinity for iodine. This is why it is said that Hashimoto's is not due to lack of iodine.

 

[Lolinda]

it could be that the other trace minerals in kelp provided for the "smoother effect" I was referring to.

Here is an analysis of kelp trace elements (I searched quite a bit... ). This is by dry weight (as you see from the moisture content).

How does this compare with the kelp used in kelp supplements?
The NOW kelp powder I buy has a recommended dosage of 200 mg corresponding to 270 µg iodine. The table below shows .0424 % iodine, which makes 84.8 µg per 200 mg kelp. So it is different but at least It is in the same ballpark. (Iodine content varies by species, terroir, season and whatnot, so this is fine.)

Now lets for example check how much vanadium is in it. The table below specifies .000535% vanadium in kelp. That makes 1.07 µg for the 200mg dose of kelp. For vanadium, dietary intake is estimated at 6 to 18 µg/day.
➞ Conclusion: 200 µg of kelp will not likely contribute significant amounts of vanadium.

As for the other minerals: I feel I contributed enough to this thread, so I leave it now to anyone interested in this question to check the other minerals if their amounts are big enough to cause any health effect. I am happy if someone can take the time!
(PS: If you are looking for ways to increase minerals, look into the many other types of seaweed sold in Jap shops such as for example "wakame". They have ways less iodine so you can eat more of them.)

http://www.kelpproductsofflorida.com/kelp---yeast-analysis.html

 

[brenda]

I would not buy seaweed from Japan. The only safe seaweed l would say comes from Iceland.

 

[Iritu1021]

High iodine in hair analysis means that you are loosing iodine = lack of co-factors and/or poor enzymatic affinity for iodine. This is why it is said that Hashimoto's is not due to lack of iodine.

I've heard that theory but I'd like to see some studies that validate it. Because my rise in lithium level is consistent with my supplementation, so higher intake reflects higher hair content. Why would it then be different for iodine?

 

[pamojja]

I've heard that theory but I'd like to see some studies that validate it. Because my rise in lithium level is consistent with my supplementation, so higher intake reflects higher hair content. Why would it then be different for iodine?

Not aware of studies, but there are differentiating clinical experiences. Once found this article, which is now down, which also makes the point that different elements can have different meaning on HTMA:

Hair analysis interpretation

Hair mineral analysis can be a useful laboratory test although it’s value depends on it’s interpretation. The following are quotes by Dr. William Walsh, Director of Research and Executive Director at The Pfeiffer Treatment Centre, on his view on hair analysis interpretation.

“Hair analysis ALONE is a very poor way to assess copper status. I say this after (a) evaluating more than 100,000 hair analyses, (b) developing the first high-quality hair standards (loaned to NIH and other researchers), and (c) performing numerous double-blind, controlled experiments involving hair chemistries. Findings of high Cu levels in hair are compromised by the many external sources of Cu which cannot be completely removed by washing. Low levels of Cu in hair and/or blood often are coincident with dangerous overloads of Cu in liver. Hair Cu values can provide information of clinical significance, but by itself is not clinically decisive.”

“Elevated hair magnesium nearly always means magnesium depletion in the body, presumably because of increased Mg excretion. The same is true of hair Calcium and hair Zinc.”

“An interesting aspect of Mn is that most persons with elevated Mn in hair have low Mn levels in blood. There are quite a few persons who believe that high Mn in the hair of behavior-disordered persons indicates a Mn overload. The opposite is true, most of the time.”

“Aluminum levels in hair present a challenging cross-contamination problem, since there is Al everywhere in our environment. I recommend a repeat hair test be done to insure that the Al result is real (unless you've already done this). I've evaluated more than 30,000 hair analyses and in my experience high aluminum levels usually cannot be replicated with repeat testing.”

“Uranium is an analysis that I have very little confidence in. I've done quality assurance testing of hair analysis labs and find some of the elements assays to be highly reliable and others to be nearly worthless. Uranium is NOT one of the good elements. Despite this, reported uranium levels usually are quite high in mining areas.... so there appears to be some QUALITATIVE significance to the uranium analysis..... but little QUANTITATIVE significance. Overall, I do not find the uranium assay to be of clinical value.”

“The "good" elements are Ca, Mg, Zn, Cu, Na, K, S, Mn, Fe, Pb, Se, P, and Cd.”

“Others that are decent (qualitative relevance) are Sb, As, Hg, Cr, Mo, Li, Ba, Ni, Sr, and Co.”

“Terrible assays (according to my tests) are: Al, Be, Bi, Pt, Th, Tl, U, Ag, Sn, Ti, V, B, I, Ge, Rb, and Zr.”

“We've obtained hair Zn and plasma Zn levels (simultaneously) about 40,000 times. Low hair Zn correlates beautifully with low plasma levels. However, very elevated Zn in hair nearly always means Zn deficiency and low plasma Zn levels. Most of the time this involves a pyrrole disorder which results in very high Zn excretion in urine (and hair). In a healthy person without a metal-metabolism problem, only about 4% of excreted Zn leaves through the kidneys.”

“I've done hair analysis proficiency testing for more than 25 years. I've never yet found a lab that can reliably assay barium in hair. The same is true of more than 10 other elements routinely reported by the hair analysis labs. Strontium has a history of strange results since typical levels are close to the detection limit for most labs.”

“Cu/Zn ratios in hair are very helpful in ADHD and behavior disorders..... but far less useful in ASD, depression, and schizophrenia.”

“I have no idea why the elevated Na & K levels in hair are associated with genius.”

I, and Dr. Walsh, recommend that practitioners use Doctors Data Inc. for hair analysis. They invented hair analysis in the 60’s and developed the original laboratory techniques.

Blake Graham, BSc (Honours), AACNEM
Clinical Nutritionist
Perth, Western Australia

In my 9 year experience with HTMAs, the differentiation that high Ca, Zn and Mg in HTMA would mean low in blood was repeatedly confirmed through blood tests.

 

[Iritu1021]

These are not expert studies but expert opinion, which in the absence of studies I guess is the next best thing.
It appears that some minerals are more reproducible than others. Hair products and mineral content of the tap water can of course contribute to the issue. However, I have a problem with using plasma levels as the gold standard for deciding the truth. If plasma levels were the ultimate true level, then we would not have intracellular hypothyroidism presenting with normal serum thyroid levels. If someone has too much of an element accumulated inside their cells, I expect it would be an appropriate body response to lower their plasma level in effort to regulate the process. Therefore, hair may be a more true representation of mineral tissue levels than plasma. But whether or not it's accurate for iodine - that I don't know.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Because my rise in lithium level is consistent with my supplementation, so higher intake reflects higher hair content. Why would it then be different for iodine?

I can only refer to my personal experience:

Hair test back in 2013 showed Iodine very high and Lithium very low.

How on earth would I have very high iodine levels? I don't live at the coast and don't consume seafood often. The salt is iodized, that's it. And I have Hashimoto's.

If I drink lithium-containing water I immediately feel hypo symptoms (I get cold hands and feet), so I have no intention of supplementing with Li.