SPINA THYR a research tool to evaluate thyroid function, deiodinases activity, TH resistance

[Iritu1021]

I did and Accutane as well, just didn't know the name Retin-A, sorry

I think excess vit E which antagonizes vit A
I didn't had excess T4, for the 1st time my TT4 levels were below range and FT4 very low in range.

I will check them out

I will have to look up what T1AM is.

Go to my blog www.chronicfatiguediagnosis.com
You will find a whole saga written about T1AM there

So I'm still confused, what happened to your thyroid when you took Accutane? It's a powerful vitamin A analogue. Did it help or make you worse?

 

[Gondwanaland]

So I'm still confused, what happened to your thyroid when you took Accutane? It's a powerful vitamin A analogue. Did it help or make you worse?

There were some confounders, but I may say that it's when my health decline begun.

The fact that I was prescribed those drugs in the first place means that something was already wrong. The drugs just masked the problem and made things worse. These drugs disturb vit A metabolism. Following a low fat diet added to problem.

 

[Lolinda]

A recipe to get false (non-representative) thyroid results from SPINA Thyr:

I was going through my labs to enter things into SPINA Thyr... and then I thought: was this before I got a lot of Iodine from kelp? Was it after I got intolerant to my favourite previous Iodine source, grilled sardines? I could get wildly non-representative values based on when the thyroid labs were done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine_in_biology
The human body contains about 15–20 mg of iodine
And a healthy person pees out 150 µg Iodine per day.
➞ So in a healthy person there is a reserve of Iodine worth 100 days.
➞➞ So, even if I am not too healthy, big gaps of Iodine intake do matter, short gaps probably do not (I do not know how fast the body goes into saving mode. Or if there is a 'save your Iodine' programme at all)

And here, just for amusement (or cautioning ) of the kind readers of this thread, my wildly fluctuating levels of Iodine intake...
(I log my foods and supps)

 

[Iritu1021]

There were some confounders, but I may say that it's when my health decline begun.

The fact that I was prescribed those drugs in the first place means that something was already wrong. The drugs just masked the problem and made things worse. These drugs disturb vit A metabolism. Following a low fat diet added to problem.

I don't do well on low fat either.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Going back to T1AM - ornithine decarboxylase is thought to be the primary enzyme involved in T1AM synthesis. Ornithine might induce it.

OK this is the thyroid hormone bound by amines. Damn.

My SNPs are (I kept your results on the right)

My results........SNP rsID Minor Allele Genotype Phenotype
CC -/- ..............DIO1 rs11206244 T TT +/+
CC -/- ..............DIO1 rs2235544 A AA +/+
CC -/- ..............DIO1 rs4926616 T TT +/+
CT +/-..............DIO2 rs12885300 T CC -/-
CT +/-..............DIO2 rs225014 C CT +/-
TT -/- ..............DIO3 rs945006 G TT -/-
CC -/- .............SNP? rs1190716 T CC -/-

 

[Lolinda]

Going through my thyroid notes, I found this diagramm. it is from a text on how cytokines (read: inflammation) cause sickness behaviour. All the four figures are consequences of cytokines. Interestingly, they do not only mention hypothyroidism but also euthyroid sick syndrome (ESS). For the full text see here

At times when I had CFS (happily resolved meanwhile), i had elevated kynurenine (Ganzimmun in Germany can test it).

 

[Lolinda]

A question to all: what do you think about the following?

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/the-great-iodine-debate/
Emmanual Cheraskin and his colleagues conducted a survey of reported total number of clinical symptoms and signs (as judged from the Cornell Medical Index Health Questionnaire) and correlated the findings with average iodine consumption. An intake of approximately 1,000 mcg per day correlated with the lowest number of reported symptoms, that is, the highest level of health.34

My humble knowledge:
- suddenly increasing iodine from a previous deficiency even to only normal RDA can cause goiter
- iodine is safer when one eats sufficient selenium
- Japanese obviously consumed such copious amounts as mentioned above for millenia. They live long. But they eat their seaweed together with goitrogens (tofu)
- there are other processes than thyroid hormone production in the body that need thyroid. I would like to know how to find out if they have enough. SPINA Thyr does a great job but does not asses if e.g. the immune system has enough Iodine. So how to find out?


One thought:
I believe that earlier, people were probably eating much more Iodine than today: think of fish head soup your grandma ate but you (probably) dont! Or traditional Portuguese/Hungarian/etc fish soup made of whole pureed small fish. Actually, when traditional folks ate pig heads, did they consume the thyroids, too? Maybe eating thyroid glands was common? What happens in cooking: do hormones stay active or do they get inactive, that is, we get simply Iodine? I guess our grandmas and granddads didnt get all hyperthyroid from their fish head soups... so maybe cooked thyroid was the big source of safe Iodine we are missing today...?

 

[Iritu1021]

This is from Endotext, a free thyroid textbook online:
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One mechanism through which iodide acts is via desensitization of the thyroid gland to TSH. In TSH stimulated glands, iodine rapidly reduces the level of the mRNA for thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and the Na/I symporter (NIS) but not for thyroglobulin (Tg) or the TSH receptor (TSHr).80a Iodine also antagonizes TSH stimulated thyrocyte proliferation.8

Another effect of large doses of iodine, apparently independent of TSH and hormone synthesis, is the prompt inhibition of hormone release.The most intriguing effects of iodine are the involution of hyperplasia and the decrease in vascularity that occur when the ion is administered to patients with diffuse toxic goiter. Iodine may be able to induce apoptosis in thyroid cells.

The iodine issue is highly controversial. Despite popular alternative medicine preachings, my current feeling after reading science literature is that iodine excess is a much more common problem today than a true iodine deficiency, especially given much more common modern deficiencies of magnesium and lithium which are supposed to balance iodine ion in CNS.

If your TSH is already on the low side in the presence of hypo symptoms, then why would you want to take something that makes your thyroid more receptive to it, especially if you don't have a good hypothalamic function to override that effect?

I also suspect that when people respond positively to large doses of iodine (as per Brownstein protocol) it's probably because they had too much intracellular thyroid production (which can make you feel very tired and depressed over long term - google hyperthyroid apathy). Unless you eat bromine and fluoride by pounds, I find it very hard to believe that anyone could require a dose of 50 mg daily as these people want me to believe. I've heard stories of people becoming completely incapacitated and bedridden for months after trying high iodine protocols for just a few days.

In general, I've come to strongly suspect that my dysautonomia is caused by abnormal thyroid gradient between neurons and endothelial cells - which are under different deiodinase regulation. Selenomethionine is a must have for deiodinases to work properly. Same goes for riboflavin and cysteine.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Unless you eat bromine and fluoride by pounds, I find it very hard to believe that anyone could require a dose of 50 mg daily as these people want me to believe.

Most people pair high doses of iodine with salt load using Himalayan Pink Salt which is loaded with Fluoride and Bromide.

Selenomethionine is a must have for deiodinases to work properly.

I wonder why Selenomethionine, Chelated Selenium (aminoacid pool) or any other chelated mineral cause me horrible brain fog. The only form I tolerate is Selenium glycinate (or Zn glycinate).

 

[Lolinda]

I find it very hard to believe that anyone could require a dose of 50 mg daily as these people want me to believe.

I couldn't agree more. But I find it interesting to look at the evidence what people have actually eaten over millennia (surely not 50mg ). If some folks had traditions that better suited human physiology in such an important domain as the thyroid, they will have survived better.

Japanese:
By combining information from dietary records, food surveys, urine iodine analysis (both spot and 24-hour samples) and seaweed iodine content, we estimate that the Japanese iodine intake--largely from seaweeds--averages 1,000-3,000 μg/day (1-3 mg/day).

Scandinavians:
Scandinavians eating fish head soup 1x per week. If you didn't already know T4 has a half life of roughly 7 days. So rather than taking thyroid everyday, which could cause you to overload on T4 (increasing your levels of RT3), it may be better to have NDT occasionally.

Several folks in Europe:
I dont have any research but first hand experience that fish soup by several folks was traditionally always cooked with whole small fish pureed.

Now, this does not at all mean that because Japanese ate seaweed for milennia and they live very long and are often healthy, I have to eat 1-3mg of iodine from seaweed But I write all this to say: There is merit in what is called "ancestral health". This is the scientific discipline of finding out what we evolved for and got used to during our 300.000 years as homo sapiens. If we ate something for 300.000 years then there are chances we are used to that
My approach is to look at both sides of evidence:

• the analytical/medical method + evaluating also my labs
• the ancestral method taking into account healthy folks as reported by research + particular attention also to my own ancestors (yes, they always ate fish soup with pureed whole small fish, without removing their thyroids)

(I add that after this, my next post will be on my Spina Thyr results ... after these musings on ancestral health, giving now preference to the analytics. )

 

[Iritu1021]

I couldn't agree more. But I find it interesting to look at the evidence what people have actually eaten over millennia (surely not 50mg ). If some folks had traditions that better suited human physiology in such an important domain as the thyroid, they will have survived better.

Japanese:
By combining information from dietary records, food surveys, urine iodine analysis (both spot and 24-hour samples) and seaweed iodine content, we estimate that the Japanese iodine intake--largely from seaweeds--averages 1,000-3,000 μg/day (1-3 mg/day).

Scandinavians:
Scandinavians eating fish head soup 1x per week. If you didn't already know T4 has a half life of roughly 7 days. So rather than taking thyroid everyday, which could cause you to overload on T4 (increasing your levels of RT3), it may be better to have NDT occasionally.

Several folks in Europe:
I dont have any research but first hand experience that fish soup by several folks was traditionally always cooked with whole small fish pureed.

Now, this does not at all mean that because Japanese ate seaweed for milennia and they live very long and are often healthy, I have to eat 1-3mg of iodine from seaweed But I write all this to say: There is merit in what is called "ancestral health". This is the scientific discipline of finding out what we evolved for and got used to during our 300.000 years as homo sapiens. If we ate something for 300.000 years then there are chances we are used to that
My approach is to look at both sides of evidence:

• the analytical/medical method + evaluating also my labs
• the ancestral method taking into account healthy folks as reported by research + particular attention also to my own ancestors (yes, they always ate fish soup with pureed whole small fish, without removing their thyroids)

(I add that after this, my next post will be on my Spina Thyr results ... after these musings on ancestral health, giving now preference to the analytics. )

I definitely agree with you on that. Ancestral genetics or childhood adaptations do matter. I think the same goes for being vegetarian - that some populations are much more genetically adopted to that than others.

Right now I shifted my focus from deiodinases toward Na/I symporters, and I'm starting to suspect that iodine and iodide might affect thyroid differently (if you look at this diagram). I certainly seem to get better effect from iodine/kelp than from anything in the salt form. Kelp iodine feels more like pure T3 effect to me. Perhaps it's a sign of less efficient transporter mechanism, especially given that it's energy-dependent.

I have a friend who just got diagnosed with Graves and she has been "addicted" to eating a lot of seaweed for years. I guess you could argue that it could induce Grave's but I think it's more likely that she was self-medicating with it as she has been undiagnosed for years.

 

[Gondwanaland]

iodine and iodide might affect thyroid differently

I read somewhere that organic I is used by thyroid, but other tissues (breast?) prefer inorganic I.

 

[Iritu1021]

The only other organ besides thyroid and breasts that appears to be using iodine are salivary glands. I also read that in prolonged severe hypothyroidism, salivary glands can actually start producing some thyroid hormone. It's called extrathyroidal production. This is why in 1900s people who had their thyroids completely removed due to goiter still managed to survive, even without any thyroid supplementation (it was before they knew what it does).

After seeing this image, I think I finally understand what's been causing all my fluctuating neuropathies in the face and neck area -- the trigeminal neuralgia, TMJ, throat pain and pressure, lower lip numbness - I think that might be all from the swelling and nerve damage to my salivary glands! And they do all seem to get better with thyroid supplementation so that supports my theory.

 

[alicec]

I'm starting to suspect that iodine and iodide might affect thyroid differently

I don't follow. All the known transporters carry iodide only as far as I'm aware.

 

[Iritu1021]

I don't follow. All the known transporters carry iodide only as far as I'm aware.

You're right, maybe that's why iodine forms allows for more controlled influx. I'm just going by my experience with different forms, though the supplement doses weren't the same so my observations might not be reliable. But from what I've experienced so far iodine is more of a slow, gentle improvement in energy while high dose iodide gives me more of an overstimulated feel. They both seem to backfire though by ultimately leaving me lower than where I started due to feedback inhibition, and the same thing happens for me with T3.

Here's an interesting article on the subject though I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9761130

Experiments conducted in rats found that administration of iodine as I– (iodide) versus I2 had opposite effects on plasma thyroid hormone levels (Sherer et al., 1991). I2-treated animals displayed elevated thyroxine (T4 ) and thyroxine/triiodothyronine (T4 /T3 ) ratios, whereas those treated with I– displayed no change or reduced plasma concentrations of T4 at concentrations in drinking water of 30 or 100 mg/L. Substantial differences were also observed in the uptake and distribution of radioiodine in the body depending upon whether it was administered as I– or I2 (Thrall & Bull, 1990; Thrall et al., 1992a). Further study revealed that this effect was attributable in large part to the reaction of I2 with metabolites of T4 in the gut of the rat to resynthesize T4 (Thrall et al., 1992b). These data were in sharp contrast to the view that I2 and I– are essentially equivalent in their effects on thyroid function (Gilman et al., 1990)

 

[Lolinda]

The only other organ besides thyroid and breasts that appears to be using iodine are salivary glands.

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/the-great-iodine-debate/
In addition to the thyroid and mammary glands, other tissues possess an iodine pump (the sodium-iodine symporter) which allows iodine concentration. Thus, it is logical to conclude that iodine plays an important role in these organs—the stomach mucosa, salivary glands, ovaries, thymus gland, skin, brain, joints, arteries and bone

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/the-great-iodine-debate/
Iodine ... was used in large amounts until the mid-1900s for treating various dermatologic conditions, chronic lung disease, fungal infestations, tertiary syphilis and even arteriosclerosis.14 ................ cleared congestion and, in the case of asthmatics, dilated the bronchial tubes and assisted breathing.].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3714096?dopt=Abstract
and researchers are beginning to understand how it works on the molecular level. Research (PDF) shows that iodine often gathers in damaged or diseased tissue, and it accumulates during phagocytosis, the process by which our immune systems attack, engulf, and consume foreign bodies or bacteria, suggesting a crucial role. During an acute infection, T4 hormone is actually subject to deiodination – the removal of iodine from thyroid hormone – and the resultant iodine is presumably mobilized for defensive aid.Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/iodine-deficiency/#ixzz3RMQBTd34

https://www.realrawfood.com/article/iodine-deficiency-consequences
Iodine can also be concentrated in the stomach tissue, and the lack of iodine in the stomach manifests as achlorhydria (lack of digestive acid production). Iodine is used by the stomach cells, also known as parietal cells, to concentrate chloride which is necessary to produce hydrochloric acid (digestive acid).

https://www.realrawfood.com/article/iodine-deficiency-consequences
We know the thyroid gland appeared in evolution at the same time as back bones (vertebrates). Radioactive iodine injected into patients shows a full outline of the bones on a total body scan. This means one of the places iodine goes to immediately is bones. Thyroid hormone makes bones grow, mature and remodel, when necessary. Together thyroid hormone, iodine and growth hormone maintain a healthy bone structure. As vertebrates (animals with backbones) are the only animals with thyroid glands it makes sense that iodine and thyroid control bone structure and function.(6-8)

this one just for fun:
http://blog.zrtlab.com/excessive-sweating-athletic-performance-and-iodine-deficiency
Two later studies targeted student athletes to determine iodine loss from sweat, comparing them to sedentary students. Rowing club students were the focus in 1985 (2), and it was determined that during two hours of exercise students were losing up to an estimated four liters of sweat. Based on an average sweat iodine concentration of 37 µg/L, up to 150 µg iodine per row session was lost. Urinary iodine levels of the rowing club students, an index of iodine consumption, were only 42% of the levels in sedentary students. A similar study was completed in 2001 (3) that compared 13 soccer student athletes to 100 sedentary students. The results were shocking. Low urine iodine (<50 µg/g creatinine) was found in 38.5% of soccer players but only 2% of sedentary students. Goiter, a clinical sign of chronic iodine deficiency, was present in 46% of the soccer players but only 1% of sedentary students. During one hour of soccer, 38% of players lost more iodine through sweat than excreted in urine the entire day.

➞ playing soccer is damn dangerous because your sweat glands need iodine, too better be "sedentary"

PS: You may object that I do cite not only research papers... However, research papers describing the horrible health probs that iodine deficient babies have say the very same things: bone deformations, dry skin, etc. I find it horrible to read these, but here you get a sample:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-3016.2012.01275.x
myxedematous cretins have all the features of severe hypothyroidism present since early life, including severe growth retardation, incomplete maturation of the facial skeleton, puffy features, thickened and dry skin, dry and rare hair, and delayed sexual maturation.

➞So what do we conclude from all of this?
My conclusion: Spyna Thyr is great at evaluating thyroid but whole body sufficiency of Iodine is an important additional question! Anyone any quantitative information on that? ...and if or if not a whole body deficiency would manifest in any of the Spyna Thyr numbers? (I do not believe the official iodine RDA recommendations, because they were based on research merely to avoid hypothyroidism. But I do not think either that the Japanese with their 1-3mg of iodine intake would be the only ones in the world to eat enough iodine . We would need an "overall health vs iodine intake" study)

 

[pattismith]

@Lolinda , Spina GT might be impaired in case of iodine deficiency (and also in case of Hashimoto)

from this paper,

"Persons treated with iodine (healthy volunteers and patients with diffuse goiter) had a significantly higher GT than individuals without treatment, indicating that iodine deficiency may have more consequences than previously expected"

"In comparison with the control group GT was significantly lower among Hashimoto patients (p<0.05), whereas goiter and Graves patients showed a significantly higher GT"

 

[pamojja]

@Lolinda , Spina GT might be impaired in case of iodine deficiency (and also in case of Hashimoto)

"Persons treated with iodine (healthy volunteers and patients with diffuse goiter) had a significantly higher GT than individuals without treatment, indicating that iodine deficiency may have more consequences than previously expected"

"In comparison with the control group GT was significantly lower among Hashimoto patients (p<0.05), whereas goiter and Graves patients showed a significantly higher GT"

I had a very consistent in the medium range GT for 9 years also on about 12 mg/d of Iodine. Then for the last tyroid test the endocrinologist ordered me to stop all iodine for 3 weeks. Was the first time the GT climbed above normal range.

By the way I do have a slightly enlarged thyroid.

 

[Gondwanaland]

During an acute infection, T4 hormone is actually subject to deiodination – the removal of iodine from thyroid hormone – and the resultant iodine is presumably mobilized for defensive aid.Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/iodine-deficiency/#ixzz3RMQBTd34

Very interesting. When my husband had pneumonia the dr included T4 in the ordered labs.

BTW awesome review Lolinda!!!!

 

[alicec]

In addition to the thyroid and mammary glands, other tissues possess an iodine pump (the sodium-iodine symporter) which allows iodine concentration. Thus, it is logical to conclude that iodine plays an important role in these organs—the stomach mucosa, salivary glands, ovaries, thymus gland, skin, brain, joints, arteries and bone

We need to be very cautious about interpreting NIS expression studies. Many of the low level identifications in extra thyroidal tissue may reflect artifacts of the sensitive mRNA detection techniques used.

When further tests are applied - ie looking for immunoreactive protein rather than mRNA, or looking for uptake of radioactive iodine, very different results are found. See for example this and this study.

Plasma membrane immunopositivity was only confirmed in thyrocytes, salivary ductal, gastric mucosa, and lactating mammary cells. For other tissues, including carcinomas, reactive protein was intracellular and so unlikely to be functional.

Consistent with this result, in people subjected to high dose 131I for thyroid cancer (patients with little thyroid uptake because of thyroidectomy or ablation), uptake was evidenced in the majority of patients in the salivary glands (in 39%) and stomach (in 78%), but was found in breast in only 4 young female patients.

With these secretory tissues, the orientation of NIS is such that iodide is taken up from the bloodstream. It is then pumped out of the gland - into gastric juices, saliva, milk - though a small amount does appear to be retained. The function in the gland is not really understood but some propose an anti-microbial and/or antioxidant role. This has not been confirmed and as for the other proposed low level extra-thyroidal sites, no functional evidence of any kind been provided.

It is thought that the function of gastric and salivary uptake and secretion of iodide is primarily one of recycling and ensuring the most efficient use of the scare molecule, iodine, much like the endless enterohepatic circulation of B12 maximises use of this very scarce molecule.

In any case, iodide is not absorbed from the gastric lumen etc as some people think. It is only in the small intestine that NIS is oriented to absorb dietary iodine (which is first converted to iodide for transport by NIS), which is then pumped into the bloodstream.

Of the tissues known to take up significant amounts of iodide from the blood, only the thyroid "organifies" it - ie converts it into an organic form (thyroid hormone). Almost all of the iodide taken up by the secretory organs is pumped out again.

You may object that I do cite not only research papers... However, research papers describing the horrible health probs that iodine deficient babies have say the very same things: bone deformations, dry skin, etc.

It's not so much that the references aren't research papers but that they offer no evidence for a role for iodine apart from its role in thyroid hormone. They offer a few vague statements and surmises.

Almost everything we know about the importance of iodine revolves around its role in thyroid hormone production and this can readily explain the horrible health problems of iodine deficient babies.

There are suggestions, but no clear evidence yet, that inorganic iodide may play some other role in some tissues. In the overall scheme of things though, this is a minor secondary role.