Shoulder and upper back pain - discontinued vitamin b12

[anne_likes_red]

Alright, I found the raw data but there are dozens of SLC19A2 and SLC19A3 genes listed. How does this correspond to wild type vs. variant?

That paper does not seem to list snps / rs numbers.
This link might be helpful...
https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/thiamine-genetic-variations-in-need-for-b1/
ETA, sorry just noticed some of those snps are in Ancestry data only but rs121908540 may be worth checking from your 23andme SLC19A2 data.

 

[SWAlexander]

Alright, I found the raw data but there are dozens of SLC19A2 and SLC19A3 genes listed. How does this correspond to wild type vs. variant?

When you found the Gene, click on each marker that leads you to NIH - select "Clinical Significance". This is the time a lot of reading begins.

 

[Steve_Sr]

That paper does not seem to list snps / rs numbers.
This link might be helpful...
https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/thiamine-genetic-variations-in-need-for-b1/
ETA, sorry just noticed some of those snps are in Ancestry data only but rs121908540 may be worth checking from your 23andme SLC19A2 data.

Dead End... I have the wild type for this particular gene.

 

[Steve_Sr]

When you found the Gene, click on each marker that leads you to NIH - select "Clinical Significance". This is the time a lot of reading begins.
View attachment 46341

Unfortunately most of these were either unlisted or a couple were benign. Not tremendously helpful. At least I now know how to look these up!

 

[GreenMachineX]

While I hate to dredge up an old thread... the coincidence is really uncanny!

I have been experiencing similar recent issues with upper back and shoulder pain. It almost feels like muscle cramps. Normally one might think that this would be due to dehydration or electrolyte issues. However, I am well hydrated and use plenty of "low sodium" salt that has plenty of potassium in it.

In concurrence with the back issues I have also noticed what appears to be delayed stomach emptying and slowed GI motility issues. This almost sounds like some of the dysautonomia issues attributed to thiamine deficiency as found by Dr. Lonsdale.

This all happened while trying to find the root cause of some B multi-vitamin side effects which mostly manifested as muscle pain (lactic acid buildup) upon use/exertion. Stopping the B multi by my FM doc has stopped these symptoms but now replaced them with the back and digestion issues.

So, in my case, this appears to be related to B vitamin issues with the stopping of the B multi. However, I am still taking:

B9 - 1000mcg DFE as Quatrafolic
B12 - 750mcg as Methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, adenosylcobalamin,
TTFD (100mg) Thiamine - which has appeared to stop working.

This leaves quite a few "holes" in my B vitamin supplementation. I suspect that some of the missing ones may be required to make the 3 that I am taking work properly.

So I think that the next step is to try adding back some of the missing "Bs" with a product like this:

B-minus from seeking health.com
https://www.seekinghealth.com/products/b-minus-100-capsules

Anyone else have any observations or comments?

Have you figured out this muscle burning thing?

 

[Steve_Sr]

Have you figured out this muscle burning thing?

No, but I currently have a working theory... An OAT test caught very high oxalates so I dove down that rabbit hole. We'll get back to that in a minute.

In April I had blood work done that showed a red cell count way into the anemia realm. This seems to correlate with the previous 9 months supplementation with TTFD. So in April I cut back on the TTFD to 50mg every other day stopped B9 & B12 completely until recently and my RBC returned to where it was at the bottom of the range in a recent test in August.

I have since restarted the B12 with no adverse effects and I don't really see any improvement in my condition either. So B12 is either not an issue or it still needs another B cofactor to make it work.

So, what about the oxalate connection? I am beginning to think that I am B6 deficient. BTW, this was never measured in any of my lab work. B6 deficiency will cause the liver to produce more endogenous oxalate which may be excreted in the urine or if there is too much get stored in the body in various bad places.

Once the blood level of oxalates drops below a certain level signals the body to start getting rid of (i.e. dumping) stored oxalate. Dumping oxalate is hard on the body and the oxalate crystals can cause a lot of inflammation on their way out of the body. This may be the cause of muscle pain that I have experienced. I think that exercise may make this worse.

So my current theory is that the B6 supplement drops the blood oxalate level to the point that my body is now starting to (or increasing) the amount of oxalates it is trying to get rid of. So my next body "hack" is to start the B-minus supplement (which contains B6) again and see if this causes a worsening of symptoms.

 

[GreenMachineX]

No, but I currently have a working theory... An OAT test caught very high oxalates so I dove down that rabbit hole. We'll get back to that in a minute.

In April I had blood work done that showed a red cell count way into the anemia realm. This seems to correlate with the previous 9 months supplementation with TTFD. So in April I cut back on the TTFD to 50mg every other day stopped B9 & B12 completely until recently and my RBC returned to where it was at the bottom of the range in a recent test in August.

I have since restarted the B12 with no adverse effects and I don't really see any improvement in my condition either. So B12 is either not an issue or it still needs another B cofactor to make it work.

So, what about the oxalate connection? I am beginning to think that I am B6 deficient. BTW, this was never measured in any of my lab work. B6 deficiency will cause the liver to produce more endogenous oxalate which may be excreted in the urine or if there is too much get stored in the body in various bad places.

Once the blood level of oxalates drops below a certain level signals the body to start getting rid of (i.e. dumping) stored oxalate. Dumping oxalate is hard on the body and the oxalate crystals can cause a lot of inflammation on their way out of the body. This may be the cause of muscle pain that I have experienced. I think that exercise may make this worse.

So my current theory is that the B6 supplement drops the blood oxalate level to the point that my body is now starting to (or increasing) the amount of oxalates it is trying to get rid of. So my next body "hack" is to start the B-minus supplement (which contains B6) again and see if this causes a worsening of symptoms.

Interesting theory. I wonder if it was happening to me more when I ate spinach...I'll have to pay attention now to that.

 

[Steve_Sr]

Interesting theory. I wonder if it was happening to me more when I ate spinach...I'll have to pay attention now to that.

Spinach is TERRIBLE for oxalates! However, it will likely shift your body into storage mode so you may actually "feel" better... for a while that is. The initial damning research was done in 1939 soon followed by the industry led "Popeye" cartoon disinformation campaign.

Oxalates is also how ethylene glycol kills. You body metabolism turns it into oxalates. Sorrel soup can also be deadly. Rhubarb is also really bad. I think it is deadly raw but still bad when cooked.

 

[chrism]

I'm curious if you ever for relief from the back/shoulder pain @godlovesatrier ? Hopefully you're well.

 

[GreenMachineX]

No, but I currently have a working theory... An OAT test caught very high oxalates so I dove down that rabbit hole. We'll get back to that in a minute.

In April I had blood work done that showed a red cell count way into the anemia realm. This seems to correlate with the previous 9 months supplementation with TTFD. So in April I cut back on the TTFD to 50mg every other day stopped B9 & B12 completely until recently and my RBC returned to where it was at the bottom of the range in a recent test in August.

I have since restarted the B12 with no adverse effects and I don't really see any improvement in my condition either. So B12 is either not an issue or it still needs another B cofactor to make it work.

So, what about the oxalate connection? I am beginning to think that I am B6 deficient. BTW, this was never measured in any of my lab work. B6 deficiency will cause the liver to produce more endogenous oxalate which may be excreted in the urine or if there is too much get stored in the body in various bad places.

Once the blood level of oxalates drops below a certain level signals the body to start getting rid of (i.e. dumping) stored oxalate. Dumping oxalate is hard on the body and the oxalate crystals can cause a lot of inflammation on their way out of the body. This may be the cause of muscle pain that I have experienced. I think that exercise may make this worse.

So my current theory is that the B6 supplement drops the blood oxalate level to the point that my body is now starting to (or increasing) the amount of oxalates it is trying to get rid of. So my next body "hack" is to start the B-minus supplement (which contains B6) again and see if this causes a worsening of symptoms.

I just had an OAT test that shows I have zero b6. How did you see you had oxalate issues on it? Could this be the reason for my insomnia? Otherwise my quinolinic acid was very high. Most of the rest of my test was fairly normal.