Severe Insomnia - 3 years - Mushrooms? Ketamine?

[Florida Guy]

Thanks. My son has tried CBD with THC for a decent period of time but it had no effect on his sleep. He has it very bad. Without Zopiclone he can go days on end without sleeping - not even napping in the day (Melatonin and anti-histamines also do nothing). Unfortunately, the Zopiclone does not provide quality sleep at all. He's decided to give Mirtazapine a go until we can source something else and perhaps some other things that we have yet to try

What works for me is plain thc, no cbd needed. In fact adding cbd seems to take away the sleepy effect, like they cancel each other out. I'm probably weird because most people like cbd. I have nothing against it but it does not help me sleep. I have zopiclone in my stash but I don't use it. Not only poor quality sleep but addiction and increased risk of dementia, according to some studies.

Mirtazapine I don't like but it works and gives low quality sleep which is better than no sleep for sure. No question about that. I am trialing phosphatidyl serine which I learned about in a thread by mary, I think it was. I read great things about it but I don't expect it to put me to sleep on its own, I'm a hard head. But, it should improve the quality of sleep I do get and that is important.

What did your son feel while on the cbd/thc? I would not give up on plain thc by itself. Maybe try some with the mirtazapine you plan to use and see if it makes a better feeling, and sleeping better? The feeling on mirt is kinda iffy, not something super pleasant. It takes time to see how he will do with various meds. I'm still trialing things because old stuff stops working or I want something better

 

[Hannah1]

Unfortunately without using some of them I have no ability to sleep - trying to wean off them now.

Thank you. Do you still use the Sinequan (Doxepin) and the Klonopin?
I know of someone who took mirtazapine for some time (18 months?) until sleep stabilised and then added LDN. Doing well now. Has yet to come off the Mirtazapine but now takes only a tiny dose (1/8th of a tablet).

 

[Hannah1]

My son's been on the Mirtazapine for two nights. Feeling rubbish and still no sleep. I think we will try to add either Zopiclone or Klonopin just for the next night or two to help him get off to sleep. Anyone got any clues as to why one might choose one over the other? The Zopiclone works for my son so that would be the obvious choice but I keep hearing Klonopin recommended and we did get some from the doctor so have it on hand.

 

[Wayne]

I want something better

Hey @Florida Guy -- Love your persistence. You may find the following of interest, which has some information on stretching the psoas muscle to (greatly) help with sleep.

Fibromyalgia Misdiagnosis -- ME/CFS Symptoms Traced to Tight Psoas Muscle​

 

[Hannah1]

I would not give up on plain thc by itself.

Thanks. I hadn't thought of using plain THC. We might give that a go. CBD/THC made him feel a little weird and anxious and didn't help with sleep.

 

[heapsreal]

My son's been on the Mirtazapine for two nights. Feeling rubbish and still no sleep. I think we will try to add either Zopiclone or Klonopin just for the next night or two to help him get off to sleep. Anyone got any clues as to why one might choose one over the other? The Zopiclone works for my son so that would be the obvious choice but I keep hearing Klonopin recommended and we did get some from the doctor so have it on hand.

I'd stick to zopiclone over klonopin. The Z drugs I think are better to help one fall asleep then traditional benzos and have a shorter half life, so less chance of next day grogginess and may slow down tolerance issues.

 

[Stretched]

We wonder if he is in some sort of perpetual flight or fight state, however, my sense is that it is more complex and nuanced than this. Despite this, we wonder if Ketamine of psilocybin mushrooms might help in some way. Ketamine because it can help with the fight-flight thing and psilocybin because it can assist with brain plasticity. Neither of these things are easily available in the country where we live.

This is exactly the condition of the HPA axis, being always on that I deduced to be the cause of my CFS. Here’s a repost of mine earlier, fwiw being applicable to your situation.

The National MECFS Association’s position and my own 30+ year pwc experience is that: CFS is a neurological disorder with stress etiology factors resulting from the HPA Axis being always unregulated (in a state of fight or flight), which in turn causes debilitating symptoms. While it may have been mediated by some virus (or retrovirus) early on, IMO that virus is long gone and only the symptoms from affected areas remain active. Otherwise, the virus would have been discovered by now.

Further IMO, after long experience (as well as other reported cases) I believe the use of long acting benzodiazepines, e.g. diazepam (Valium) and other neurological tranquilizers helps many resume increased physical and emotional states. True, it’s a controversial protocol but anxiolytic suppression is backed by scientific evidence. If flipping the light switch works… .

 

[Hannah1]

I believe the use of long acting benzodiazepines, e.g. diazepam (Valium) and other neurological tranquilizers helps many resume increased physical and emotional states.

Thanks a lot for your reply. It's interesting as my son has recently started using Clonazepam (Klonopin) - just 1mg an hour before bed and he is finally getting decent sleep - the last 4 nights anyway. (He felt horrible on the Mirtazapine so had to stop). We were reluctant to take a benzo given the bad rap and also concerned about the potential for building up tolerance but so far, it is the only thing that has allowed him to get proper sleep. I remember reading that Nancy Klimas believes that Z-drugs and benzos steal quality sleep - this is my son's experience with Zopiclone but the sleep he is getting with the Clonazepam seems to be deep enough that he is waking up feeling relatively refreshed. It is early days, so it will be interesting to see if this good thing lasts.

 

[Stretched]

this is my son's experience with Zopiclone but the sleep he is getting with the Clonazepam seems to be deep enough that he is waking up feeling relatively refreshed. It is early days, so it will be interesting to see if this good thing lasts.

It’s good to hear you’re getting favorable results. Please know that getting off these things is hell on earth. I did and it took a couple of years to get back on them at a more recent date, mostly due to DEA, et al. A consortium doc actually confirmed their policy was to avoid benzos and Zs!

I finally got an independent doc to agree that at my late age she’s not worried about addiction - only comfort! I hope this comment does start a line… .

 

[Mary]

I've stumbled across a couple of herb products that are more potent - and thus more effective - than most for sleep. I've just started this recently and hope this will work out. I take each main herb with a couple of milder ones, and plan to switch off every 10 days or so. I'm just coming off of 10 days on one combo and plan to go back to 10 days on my original combo, etc.

I also take this with my usual stuff I take every night: niacin, NAG, l-theanine, melatonin, 5-htp, magnesium glycinate (magnesium citrate or ANYTHING with citrate at night gives me insomnia)

The potent herb brands are highlighted/linked. I've tried several other versions/brands with little effect.

Here they are:

PROTOCOL 1:

LEMON BALM - most lemon balm I barely feel but this product is different - 2 caps before bed, 2 more middle of the night, paired with -

SHUI DE AN - 2 caps with the lemon balm, each time you take it

OR

JUJUBE SLEEPING TABLETS - 5 or 6 tablets with the lemon balm (they're small)

PROTOCOL 2:

MAGNOLIA BARK (HOU PO) - again, the brand/product is everything. Several years ago Bulk Supplements carried a very powerful magnolia bark product and 1/4 teaspoon would knock me out. Now a couple of teaspoons of Bulk Supplements product barely does anything, but this product is good. I dissolve 3 scoops (very small scoop is included in package) in water before bed and drink with all my pills. And it's worked for 10 days.

CHAMOMILE EXTRACT - again, stronger than usual chamomile product. Regular chamomile does nothing for me - I take 2 caps with the magnolia bark.

VALERIAN ROOT, CHAMOMILE, HOPS - I don't know if this does anything, nothing special about, but throw it in for good measure - I take 3 with the magnolia bark and chamomile.

GENERIC UNISOM (doxylamine succinate) - you can get this anywhere. In the middle of the night I take half a tab (12.5 mg.) - this is strong, I would not start with a full tab - it might be enough on its own for some of you but like everything else, my body adapts to it in about 10 days.


Anyways, the 2 products I was very happy to discover are the lemon balm and the magnolia bark. Both are potent products unlike almost every version or brand I've tried. I'll be switching off tonight and hope I've been off of my first protocol long enough for it to be effective again!

 

[jasperZA]

The thing that has helped my insomnia the most is Low Dose Abilify.
Fluvoxamine actually gave me severe insomnia.
I was on 30mg Mirtazapine before LDA, now I'm on only 7.5mg

 

[Aerowallah]

MY GOD the drugs and the experimentation.

START with a neurotransmitter spit test!

Find out if a stress hormone is elevated in your brain. Elevated cortisol, elevated epinephrine, elevated histamines, elevated glutamate can all cause or contribute to severe insomnia.

Then you can target the elevated hormone.

But know that targeting inflammation and clearing toxicity is the best way to lower a stress response cocktail, and help the body and brain rebalance itself...