Self-Experiment: AAS, rHGH, L-Carnitine Injections, T3, mitochondrial Cocktail.

[mitoMAN]

I disagree. Oral carnitine was absolutely wonderful in counteracting the increase in symptoms I got from eating fatty acids. Without the oral carnitine, a meat-based meal would make me feel really lousy the next day. With a partial tsp of carnitine, I could eat half a chicken without suffering an increase in my ME symptoms.

While oral carnitine might not be effective for raising levels in muscle cells, it can be very useful for other tasks, such as getting fatty acids into cerebral mitochondria (if that's what it was doing for me).

Yes I agree with you. However I think junkcrap was looking to lower lactate in muscle - which can only be archieved with injectible forms.
I might suggest you try an injectible form as well? It could build up a huge depot that will not require any oral supplementation furthermore. Just my thoughts tho.

 

[junkcrap50]

Yes I agree with you. However I think junkcrap was looking to lower lactate in muscle - which can only be archieved with injectible forms.

Well I'm just trying to find anything that can help my muscles. My muscles chronically have the lactic acid buildup feeling from doing any little thing: climbing stairs, combing my hair, blow drying my hair, brushing my teeth, putting my clothes on, holding something up to my eyes, etc. (This all started as a side effect from taking methylation support: b12 & folate). Low carnitine and carnitine injections were just one idea I had and wanted to learn more about your experience with it.

 

[Wishful]

I might suggest you try an injectible form as well?

Too late: after taking oral carnitine with meat-meals for several months, the problem went away. I doubt that injections would have done significantly better. I haven't had muscle symptoms, so I have no experience there.

 

[mitoMAN]

Well I'm just trying to find anything that can help my muscles. My muscles chronically have the lactic acid buildup feeling from doing any little thing: climbing stairs, combing my hair, blow drying my hair, brushing my teeth, putting my clothes on, holding something up to my eyes, etc. (This all started as a side effect from taking methylation support: b12 & folate). Low carnitine and carnitine injections were just one idea I had and wanted to learn more about your experience with it.

Sorry I didnt mean to attack your.
Your problems however sound like the core problem of CFS. Mitochondrial Dysfunction.
No cure for that has been found so far. Badpack started SS-31 already. Lets hope it helps im.

Defective Mitochondria will produce high lactate with the slightest "exercise" ... even lifting the arm without any weight. I know how that feels. I tried taking anabolic steroids and all kinds of stuff. They help to a small degree but nothing game changing.

 

[heapsreal]

Well how much insulin is used or required? (I know insulin supplementation is common with GH & bodybuilders, but what are the risks of using insulin?) Why wouldn't straight insulin screw up your insulin sensitivity.

Also, wouldn't dosing carnitine at meal times provide sufficient insulin? (Thought that would take a long time ~100 days for 10% carnitine increase in muscle).

An option instead of insulin is metformin to help increase insulin sensitivity. Supps such as lipoic acid, chromium can also improve insulin sensitivity. Keeping carbs low can help. If your using 1-2iu of gh a day you may not need to do anything with insulin. Bodybuilders have a different goal and use much larger doses then one would use for health and antiaging so may have a much greater need for insulin. I believe a famous bber in the 90s dosed his gh at 4iu every second day and didnt add insulin until the end of his career, which he has said he believed didnt help his bbing competitiveness. Every second day dosing might be worth considering???

 

[heapsreal]

Well I'm just trying to find anything that can help my muscles. My muscles chronically have the lactic acid buildup feeling from doing any little thing: climbing stairs, combing my hair, blow drying my hair, brushing my teeth, putting my clothes on, holding something up to my eyes, etc. (This all started as a side effect from taking methylation support: b12 & folate). Low carnitine and carnitine injections were just one idea I had and wanted to learn more about your experience with it.

Creatine may help. Or try dosing sodium bicarb in small amounts. Its very salty so it can be hard to swallow significant doses. Also calciym bicarbonate might be easier to tolerate.

 

[Wishful]

Your problems however sound like the core problem of CFS. Mitochondrial Dysfunction.

I was checking out the 'research nerds' link, and found this paper:
"
A systematic review of mitochondrial abnormalities in myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome/systemic exertion intolerance disease

Authors: Holden S, Maksoud R, Eaton-Fitch N, Cabanas H, Staines D, Marshall-Gradisnik S.
Link: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32727475/"

"Nonetheless, the results suggest that ME/CFS is not a primary mitochondrial disorder, due to the absence of disease-causing genetic variants. Changes in mitochondrial structure, DNA, RNA, respiratory function, metabolites and coenzymes were found, and the authors suggest that these might be due to secondary effects of other disrupted pathways. However, they also note the significant methodological inconsistencies and small sample sizes in these studies, and recommend that these findings be interpreted with caution."

That fits my feelings about ME: that mitochondrial problems are a secondary effect found in some PWME, but it's not the core dysfunction causing ME. I can't rule out mitochondrial dysfunction in my brain, but there don't seem to be any symptoms I could attribute to mitochondrial dysfunction in the rest of my body.

 

[junkcrap50]

@mitoMAN, how were you able to inject 3000mg of carnitine? Or even 1200mg? How many cc's was that? What was the concentration of the carnitine?

I've started my carnitine injections (plus oral) and it's 500mg/mL. So I'm injecting 2ml, which is a lot and not that easy. To reach 3000mg, I would have to inject 6ml, which just isn't possible.

Also, the carnitine is a bit painful and makes the muscle quite sore for several days. Did you notice the carnitine hurting?

 

[mitoMAN]

3000mg was really just the peak. I did 9ml total... It was a LOT.
500mg/ml Carnitine solution.
3x 1ml each quad I.M (with s.c needle 1,2cm) and 3x 1ml buttocks or delts.

Indeed it would be wise to do some slow walking 30mins after injection. To counteract injection pain.

I would recommend to only try going to this dosage slowly. If you dont notice any benefits from it - drop it.
IF 3000mg doesnt help, than Carnitine isnt your problem.

1000mg is enough already usually. Even 500mg might be!

Forget the oral one tho. The injection is sufficient to trial if Carnitine is what you need.

 

[junkcrap50]

Thanks for replying. Wow holy crap.

3000mg was really just the peak. I did 9ml total... It was a LOT.

Wait, do you mean you did 9mL in 1 day/dose? Or 9mL was the total cumulative dose you took over several days/doses/injections? What do you mean "3000mg was just the peak"? That it was the largest dose you gave yourself (in one day / injection)?

How many days of these carnitine injections were you doing? Did you stop after one or a few injections of 3000mg?

1000mg is enough already usually. Even 500mg might be!

Huh. Well, since it took 3000mg for you. That's what I'll try to psych myself up for, before I give up.

Do you think that it builds up cumulatively or that you needed a large, 3000mg dose to see an effect? I was planning on doing 1000mg for 15 days, all 30mL of my vial. Since 1mL is the most I can really bear.

I would recommend to only try going to this dosage slowly. If you dont notice any benefits from it - drop it.
IF 3000mg doesnt help, than Carnitine isnt your problem.

Well, I started with 500mg (1/2mL) for a couple days. And have now been doing 1000mg for 4-5 days now (2 injections, 1 in each glute). However, I am not doing insulin injections with it. But doing my carnitine shot after eating my biggest and carb heaviest meal.

 

[kewia]

In my case, it was an immune problem. The boost in immune system and T-Cells that the HGH gave me got rid of all those symptoms up till today. I am completly free of pain and similar symptoms which is a GREAT relief for me. I am still taking 4iu HGH ed (2x 2iu HGH with 2iu insulin) and will probably do so for the rest of my life.

This is fascinating. Do you have an HGH deficiency, or is there another reason you are taking it? Did insurance pay for you?

 

[kewia]

Just dont take oral Carnitine at all - its a waste of money similar to oral B12 compared to injectible MethylB12 etc.

No it isn't:

Based on these results, Authors suggested that oral ingestion of LC, combined with CHO for activation carnitine transport into the muscles, should take ~ 100 days to increase muscle carnitine content by ~ 10% [26]. This assumption has been confirmed in later studies [5,6,7]. These carefully conducted studies clearly showed that prolonged procedure (for ≥12 weeks) of a daily LC and CHO ingestion induced a raise of skeletal muscle TC levels [5,6,7], affecting exercise metabolism [5], improving performance [5] and energy expenditure [6], without altering body composition [6]. The lack of body fat stores loss may be explained by the 18% increase in body fat mass associated with CHO supplementation alone, noted in the control group [6].

See this study.

 

[mitoMAN]

No it isn't:


See this study.

i posted the exact same thing in my introduction post page1



Goal is to support mitochondrial function. According to one study, a loading phase of about 23 days is needed for intramuscular injections – vs 103 days of oral supplementation.
For a signtificantly improved L-Carnitine uptake from injections, Insulin is needed to activate the OCTN2 transporter and increase uptake by 15-30% (according to research paper from The Stephens Group Research)


Self-filtering and brewing injectible carnitine is much cheaper and much faster in efficency

 

[mitoMAN]

This is fascinating. Do you have an HGH deficiency, or is there another reason you are taking it? Did insurance pay for you?

No I have no hgh deficency, i took it without Dr. - insurance would never pay for it.
I had very low T and B cells as well as NK cells - so I was trying to increase it and see if symptoms improved (sadly they didnt resolve despite high T and B and NK cell count on HGH)

 

[kewia]

Self-filtering and brewing injectible carnitine is much cheaper and much faster in efficency

Because of higher absorption when injecting, yes.
But it isn't useless. I find it tough to inject it, probably, every two days due to it's half-time.

Maybe supplementation with sugar over a long horizon is less efficient but easier to manage. Insulin is even not accessible for many of us without a doctor.

But I'm happy you find a way to improve your situation, especially because of your leaky gut hardening absorption, so this may a viable option for those with leaky gut.

 

[kewia]

And I went up to pretty high dosages (carnitine is harmless so dont worry). I had zero side effects.

Are you aware of possible cardio vascular problems regarding long term carnitine supplementation?

 

[linusbert]

Hello guys, I had the same idea to inject LC but subcutaneously, anyone got experience or remarks with LC SQ injections?

My doctor subscribed me a supplement for SQ injection but it is IV only, at least that is what the package got declared on. So not IM am and not SQ.
it contains: carnitine, water and hydrochloric acid.

Can I and inject it SQ anyways?