Self-Experiment: AAS, rHGH, L-Carnitine Injections, T3, mitochondrial Cocktail.

[mitoMAN]

Self-Experiment: AAS, rHGH, L-Carnitine Injections, T3, mitochondrial Cocktail.

Dear fellow users,
e.

I have been suffering from CFS for 16 years now, with being 18-20 hours bedbound daily the last 12 months.

* I DO NOT RECOMMEND TO APPLY ANY OF THIS INFORMATION TO YOURSELF *

My Experiments are being supervised by an atheltic perfomance and bodybuilding coach.
Most of my substances are lab tested for purity and content by myself or the team I work with.

Spoiler: T3 Supplementation

to reach stable blood levels of T3 – lab checked after 14 days of intake.
25mcg daily was enough to reach the higher end of healthy levels. Split dosage in morning and night.
27. March – till now

Opinion: I tried T4 in 2018 with my doctor already. Honestly, no difference noticeable since intake.

Spoiler: AAS – Anabolic Steroids:

I had very positive effects with Testosterone and Trenbolone during my intake in 2015-2017
At that time, however, my CFS was not keeping me in bed 20hours a day before starting the intake.

27.March – Sustanon (750mg/wk) and Trenbolone Acetate (350mg/wk) + 0,5mg Adex ed
03.June - Sustanon (750mg/wk) and Drostanolone Propionate (350mg/wk) + 0,5mg Adex ed
ongoing
We started pinning every day vs previously e2d to see if I am a fast metabolizer.



Opinion: Only minior fatigue improvements, Trenbolone caused heavy sleep apnea and was discontinued. I gained quite some muscle even by laying in bed!

Spoiler: rHGH – recombinant Human Growth Hormone + Insulin

Goal is to get my NK cell count and immunefunction up (drastically low NK cells measured in blood) as well as produce signtificant amount of IGF-1 to support my mitochondrial function.
Insulin is working as a synergy for activating the HGH receptors.

04.April – Starting with 8iu rHGH every 2 days.
20.May – 15iu rHGH e2d with 3iu Insulin (ultra fast acting) 30 minutes after rHGH injection.
ongoing



Opinion: after 4 weeks of 8iu rHGH, my NK cells moved up to the lower reference according to latest blood works.
According to my coach, rHGH needs to be taken at least 5+ months to fully reap the benefits

Spoiler: L-Carnitine I.M. Injections + Insulin

Goal is to support mitochondrial function. According to one study, a loading phase of about 23 days is needed for intramuscular injections – vs 103 days of oral supplementation.
For a signtificantly improved L-Carnitine uptake from injections, Insulin is needed to activate the OCTN2 transporter and increase uptake by 15-30% (according to research paper from The Stephens Group Research)

10.May 1200mg L-Carnitine I.M Injections with 3iu Insulin (ultra fast acting)
30.May 3000mg L-Carnitine I.M with 3iu Insulin
ongoing



Opinion: the lower 1200mg of L-Carnitine injections didnt do much. We decided to increase the amount to 3000mg. Two days after the adjustment, i felt a VERY significant increase in energy.
I am able to go for „mini-walks“ for the first time in a year without getting post walking shivering attacks with fever like symptoms!

Spoiler: Mitochondrial Cocktail

I am taking the classical recommended supplementations. Split into 2-3 Dosages per day.


Started 18. February
1000mg of NMN (β-Nicotinamide Mononucleotide)
1000mg of Trans-Resverastrol
600mg CoQ10
5000mg Creatine
Vitamin B complexes etc etc.

Started 03. June
15000mg D-Ribose



Opinion: no measureable improvements. But I am taking them for the long run. Probably several months – year is needed to refill the cells via orgal administration.

Spoiler: BPC-157

Goal is to fix my gut issues which are left undiagnosed for 16+ years.
Peptide was checked for content and is authentic BPC.

01.May – 500mcg BPC-157 injected sc into the belly.
ongoing.



Opinion: hard to say, as I am also taking gut baceteria support (MUTAFLOR and lactobacillus) which is resulting in slight bloating after intake.
It will probably be possible to rate the effect of BPC-157 after the gut bacteria support has been discontinued.

 

[Wishful]

I had no response to supplemental T4 or T3, but I did benefit from T2 (3-5 diiodothyronine) or iodine (some converts to T2). If you're in the 'Desperate to try anything' phase, it's something to try. For me, a single 100 mcg dose of T2 prevented an otherwise worsening of symptoms for a precise and consistent 21 days. It worked for me for years, but recently I managed to cure myself of PEM and that seems to have also lost me the need for T2 boosting.

For me, the treatments that have worked were accidental discoveries rather than anything based on theories, so my advice is to pay attention to any changes in your symptoms, and then try to figure out what caused the change. A food/activity/symptom journal helps identify factors.

 

[Judee]

to reach stable blood levels of T3 – lab checked after 14 days of intake.
25mcg daily was enough to reach the higher end of healthy levels. Split dosage in morning and night.
27. March – till now

Opinion: I tried T4 in 2018 with my doctor already. Honestly, no difference noticeable since intake.

Do you run low on temperature? Have you looked at Wilson's Temperature Syndrome? I felt better on that but I was using an old prescription to experiment and no one to prescribe it for me going forward.

 

[Cipher]

@mitoMAN I have some input regarding your insulin-experiment. I have Type 1 Diabetes, so I inject myself with insulin everyday to control my blood glucose levels. When you ingest carbohydrates your blood glucose levels rises. The so-called beta-cells in the pancreas senses this (in non type-1-diabetics) and secretes insulin. Which means if you want increased insulin levels when taking L-carnitine for example, you can just eat carbohydrates. There's no need to inject insulin. What happens when you inject insulin without matching it with carbohydrates is that your blood glucose drops, and the so-called alpha-cells secretes glucagon when you're almost hypoglycemic. Which signals the liver to release stored glucose into the blood. If you already are on the edge of hypoglycemia, taking insulin injections might overwhelm the alpha-cells, and you can actually get hypoglycemic, which is potentially really dangerous. The dose you took, 3IU, for me at least is equivalent to 30g of carbohydrates.

Also, you might wanna read this thread; D-Ribose linked to Memory Loss, Anxiety, & Aβ-like deposits associated with Alzheimer’s in Mice

 

[junkcrap50]

Goal is to support mitochondrial function. According to one study, a loading phase of about 23 days is needed for intramuscular injections – vs 103 days of oral supplementation.
For a signtificantly improved L-Carnitine uptake from injections, Insulin is needed to activate the OCTN2 transporter and increase uptake by 15-30% (according to research paper from The Stephens Group Research)

10.May 1200mg L-Carnitine I.M Injections with 3iu Insulin (ultra fast acting)
30.May 3000mg L-Carnitine I.M with 3iu Insulin
ongoing



Opinion: the lower 1200mg of L-Carnitine injections didnt do much. We decided to increase the amount to 3000mg. Two days after the adjustment, i felt a VERY significant increase in energy.
I am able to go for „mini-walks“ for the first time in a year without getting post walking shivering attacks with fever like symptoms!

@mitoMAN

• Could you talk more about your experience with Carnitine Injections?
• What were your symptoms before and after carnitine injections?
• What made you suspect you needed carnitine? Were you low in carnitine? Did you get your blood carnitine levels tested?
• How did carnitine effect your muscles?
• Did you have any lactic acid like burning in your muscles before taking carnitine? Did it resolve after carnitine?
• Any muscle aches?
• Did you have increased muscle endurance after carnitine injections?
• Have you noticed any carnitine toxicity or overdose of carnitine? 3g IM/day seems to be a lot from what I've read about carnitine dosing.
• Did you try any carnitine injections alone, without insulin?

According to one study, a loading phase of about 23 days is needed for intramuscular injections – vs 103 days of oral supplementation.

Loading phase of what? A carnitine loading phase? Could you link this study please?

I am able to go for „mini-walks“ for the first time in a year without getting post walking shivering attacks with fever like symptoms!

What do you think was causing the shivering/fever attacks? A severe energy deficit? An immune/inflammatory response to free radicals produced from exercise/exertion? (I am wondering if my muscle aches and lactic acid burning is due to my muscles not able to produce a burst of antioxidants to combat the free radicals produced from exertion. EDIT: Also thinking it could be due to low carnitine, but serum labs were normal.)

 

[mitoMAN]

Will reply to you tonight or tomorrow and edit my post here!

 

[Wishful]

What do you think was causing the shivering/fever attacks?

Don't rule out neurological causes. A quick check didn't turn up an explanation for the entire process of shivering, but I wouldn't be surprised if some part(s) of the brain are involved. I don't think that sticking one arm in icewater will cause that arm to shiver with the rest of the body not shivering.

Since ME seems to mess up some brain functions, it seems plausible that the temperature control system could malfunction in a way that triggers shivering, or it could even trigger the system that sends the signals for rapidly contracting muscles (shivering).

 

[junkcrap50]

Since ME seems to mess up some brain functions, it seems plausible that the temperature control system could malfunction in a way that triggers shivering, or it could even trigger the system that sends the signals for rapidly contracting muscles (shivering).

Possible. Everyone is different. However, I have had some shivering / fever attacks before. And I wanted to compare them to my experience. In my experience, I would get suddenly very nauseous, chilled, start to shiver (even sometimes teeth chattering shivers), heavy sweats (despite being cold and shivering), and just feel really awful. I would also get loose bowels and excrete a huge (like my whole gut), foul, abnormal bowel movement. I never connected my shivering to any exercise or exertion consequence.

After the huge bowel movement, I would usually feel much better and back to normal, without chills and shivering. I don't know if my shivering was due to my bowel movement or caused the bowel movement. But it felt like I was "detoxing" and the toxins (in the stool) were causing an inflammatory / herx response.

 

[helios]

Those are some heavy duty AAS doses you were on are you planning to cruise on that level of T for long term. I see you dropped Tren. I actually liked Tren better.
Are you staggering the trialing of these supplements so as to be able to isolate which ones are working the best and which ones are giving you trouble?
I'd love to do the same, but after having CFS for 20yrs finances are not the best to be able to afford that weekly now. I used to get mega dose vitamin injections (Myers cocktails) which were fantastic, just not cheap and they had there residual health boosting effect faded within a few days. which was such a shame.

 

[heapsreal]

@mitoMAN I have some input regarding your insulin-experiment. I have Type 1 Diabetes, so I inject myself with insulin everyday to control my blood glucose levels. When you ingest carbohydrates your blood glucose levels rises. The so-called beta-cells in the pancreas senses this (in non type-1-diabetics) and secretes insulin. Which means if you want increased insulin levels when taking L-carnitine for example, you can just eat carbohydrates. There's no need to inject insulin. What happens when you inject insulin without matching it with carbohydrates is that your blood glucose drops, and the so-called alpha-cells secretes glucagon when you're almost hypoglycemic. Which signals the liver to release stored glucose into the blood. If you already are on the edge of hypoglycemia, taking insulin injections might overwhelm the alpha-cells, and you can actually get hypoglycemic, which is potentially really dangerous. The dose you took, 3IU, for me at least is equivalent to 30g of carbohydrates.

Also, you might wanna read this thread; D-Ribose linked to Memory Loss, Anxiety, & Aβ-like deposits associated with Alzheimer’s in Mice

The idea behind insulin with GH is that GH is hyperglycaemic. So using small doses of insulin takes the burden off the pancrease. So its not treating blood sugar from diet but the high levels of blood sugar from GH.

 

[Wishful]

However, I have had some shivering / fever attacks before.

I had those at the very start of my ME, which appeared to be a type IV delayed food sensitivity. I thought it was just a typical flu virus, except that it was gone the next day. It occurred a couple times more, and I noticed that the symptoms flared up 48 hrs after drinking orange juice. I think the fever/shivering only happened the first couple of times, and after that it was just the other symptoms expected from a flu. Since this was a t-cell reaction triggering the shivering/flu symptoms, immune system activation might have been responsible for your attacks too. Just speculating here. Maybe something in your gut was triggering an immune response?

 

[junkcrap50]

Will reply to you tonight or tomorrow and edit my post here!

Any chance I could get a response to some of my questions?

 

[mitoMAN]

• Could you talk more about your experience with Carnitine Injections?
• What were your symptoms before and after carnitine injections?
• What made you suspect you needed carnitine? Were you low in carnitine? Did you get your blood carnitine levels tested?
• How did carnitine effect your muscles?
• Did you have any lactic acid like burning in your muscles before taking carnitine? Did it resolve after carnitine?
• Any muscle aches?
• Did you have increased muscle endurance after carnitine injections?
• Have you noticed any carnitine toxicity or overdose of carnitine? 3g IM/day seems to be a lot from what I've read about carnitine dosing.
• Did you try any carnitine injections alone, without insulin?

Sorry for the late reply.
Basically I tried to consider every compound that could help muscle mitochondria and reduce lactate buildup.
As I have a friend that is a professional Bodybuilding Coach - asking for advice in this sports was my first thought.
Bodybuilders usually take Carnitine injections for fat loss and energy boost. It also benefits certain mitochondrial disease where Carnitine is deficient ofc. But it also helps reduce lactate buildup in healthy controls.

I did not measure my Carnitine, as that would have to be measured intramascular and thats only possible via biopsy. The serum level wont be reliable.

I noticed that Carnitine reduces my lactate buildup on going up stairs, walking etc. But it didnt help me get enough energy to step up a stage in my fatigue score. And I went up to pretty high dosages (carnitine is harmless so dont worry). I had zero side effects.

This is generally a good archive for HGH and Carnitine as well as Insulin:
https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/wiki/datbtrue

The Stephens Group Research: Summary of Findings

How to increase muscle carnitine

Plasma carnitine is not specifically lacking The transport mechanism and membrane gradient for carnitine flow into muscle cells are restrictive Increasing the amount of carnitine is of no value in and of itself Increasing the transport mechanism/membrane gradient + the amount of carnitine = increase in muscle carnitine The methodolgy for increasing flow of carnitine in to cells is via changing the membrane permeability to allow more carnitine transport Methodology

Insulin is a method for effecting this increased flow Intravenously administered L-carnitine + insulin = increased carnitine in muscle cells There is a threshold concentration for the stimulatory effect of insulin on skeletal muscle accumulation blunts PDC activity (carbohydrate oxidation) reduces muscle lactate content increases glycogen content in muscle (i.e reduces oxidation of glucose in favor of storage) reduces muscle glycolysis increases fat oxidation Results: Using this methodology carnitine content increases by 13% to 15% and:

Alternative to exogenous Insulin
For the reason that the determined insulin threshold is low enough to be reached via non-pharmacological methods, oral ingestion of glucose may be used. For the reason that the carnitine turnover rate in skeletal muscle is low (190 +/- 20 hours) daily carnitine increases will result in a continued build up of total muscle carnitine. This allows the use of low bioavailable methods such as daily ingestion of oral carnitine w/ glucose load to increase carnitine in muscle at an incremental rate such that within 100 days carnitine content will have increased by 10%. blunt PDC activity (carbohydrate oxidation) reduce muscle lactate content increase glycogen content in muscle (i.e. reduce oxidation of glucose in favor of storage) reduce muscle glycolysis increase fat oxidation Results: This amount of carnitine is sufficient to:

How do you increase carnitine in muscle?

Studies have consistently failed to increase skeletal muscle carnitine content either through oral supplementation or intravenous L-carnitine administration. Watcher et al (2002) fed 2 grams of L-carnitine twice a day for 3 months to normal people and failed. Similar studies by Barnet et al. (1994) and Vulkovich et al. (1994) demonstrated similar failures with oral feedings of l-carnitine for 3 months.

Intravenous infusion of L-carnitine for up to 5 hours similarly failed to have any effect on muscular carnitine content (Brass et al. (1994); (Stephens Group, Insulin stimulates… (2006)).

Injecting or Ingesting Carnitine without Insulin is a waste of money.

 

[mitoMAN]

More insights on Insulin's mechanism

So with this basic understanding that OCTN2 is a cotransporter of sodium & carnitine and that under normal conditions it is fully saturated and thus unable to benefit further carnitine inflow via Na+/K+ ATPase pump activity, lets examine how insulin overcomes this equilibrium and brings about an increased inflow of carnitine into skeletal muscle.

How insulin increases the flow of carnitine into muscle

The Na+ dependent, active transport of carnitine into human skeletal muscle is mediated via a high-affinity, transporter OCTN2.

The Stephens Group found that the combination of increased carnitine and increased insulin (above a threshold) increased skeletal muscle OCTN2 mRNA expression by 2.3 fold (Stephens Group, Insulin stimulates… (2006)) in addition to increasing the activity of Na+/K+ ATPase pump. This results in an increased availability of transporter which potentially increases the amount of carnitine that may be carried into the muscle cell.

The action of insulin however is most important in changing the membrane permeability in favor of carnitine inflow.

It has been demonstrated that the Na+ dependent uptake of other nutrients into skeletal muscle is increased by insulin, for example amino acids (Zorzano et al. 2000) and creatine (Green et al. 1996; Steenge et al. 1998).

Insulin is able to increase the flow of carnitine into skeletal muscle as follows.

Insulin increases Na+/K+ ATPase pump activity by increasing translocation (or movement) of alpha2 and beta1 pump subunits from an intracellular storage site to the plasma membrane (Sweeney & Klip, 1998), and through an increase in the sensitivity of the Na+/K+ ATPase pump to intracellular Na+ (Clausen, 1986, 2003; Ewart & Klip, 1995).

OCTN2 has equal affinity for sodium ion (Na+) and carnitine and bonds to both. With an increased Na+/K+ ATPase pump activity brought about by an increase in circulating insulin concentration intracellular Na+ concentration is lowered which increases the electrochemical gradient for Na+ and therefore increases Na+/carnitine cotransport.

This results in an increase of carnitine inside the muscle cell.

They also go on and talk about loading phases of Carnitine etc etc.
You could mimic this by eating large amounts of glucose/dextrose etc like also proposed by the Stephens Group. But you will fuck up your insulin sensitivity and get fat at the same time. Not really a good option.

What do you think was causing the shivering/fever attacks? A severe energy deficit? An immune/inflammatory response to free radicals produced from exercise/exertion? (I am wondering if my muscle aches and lactic acid burning is due to my muscles not able to produce a burst of antioxidants to combat the free radicals produced from exertion. EDIT: Also thinking it could be due to low carnitine, but serum labs were normal.)

In my case, it was an immune problem. The boost in immune system and T-Cells that the HGH gave me got rid of all those symptoms up till today. I am completly free of pain and similar symptoms which is a GREAT relief for me. I am still taking 4iu HGH ed (2x 2iu HGH with 2iu insulin) and will probably do so for the rest of my life.


Regular serum labs wont tell you how much Carnitine is actually inside the muscle.

 

[mitoMAN]

Those are some heavy duty AAS doses you were on are you planning to cruise on that level of T for long term. I see you dropped Tren. I actually liked Tren better.
Are you staggering the trialing of these supplements so as to be able to isolate which ones are working the best and which ones are giving you trouble?
I'd love to do the same, but after having CFS for 20yrs finances are not the best to be able to afford that weekly now. I used to get mega dose vitamin injections (Myers cocktails) which were fantastic, just not cheap and they had there residual health boosting effect faded within a few days. which was such a shame.

My idea was that more IGF-1 and muscle cells could probably generate new working muscle mitochondria.
But that didnt work out. I have huge muscles thanks to muscle memory and anabolics but cant use them much.
I still will keep on TRT dosage of 300mg Sustanon per Week for the rest of my life probably. I dont really have problems pinning myself and my T levels were fucked before I started the cycle already. Barely below minimum reference. So coming off TRT is not an option for me.

I wouldnt suggest you try any of these unless you suffer from muscle wasting (bedbound) then it can really be a life saver! As I spent a whole year in bed but still get asked if I work out daily... even tho I can barely do longer walks.


As of now, the greatest addition was injectible NADH I would say. It got my mind back to 90% working and some physical energy. I have been injecting it daily for 40 days now I think and it gave me good quality of life improvements. However we are not talking something like bein even close to leaving the house for several hours in a row!

 

[mitoMAN]

The idea behind insulin with GH is that GH is hyperglycaemic. So using small doses of insulin takes the burden off the pancrease. So its not treating blood sugar from diet but the high levels of blood sugar from GH.

This is totally correct. Also exogenous GH and Insulin synergize and it upregulates Growth Hormone Receptor Synthesis.

 

[heapsreal]

My idea was that more IGF-1 and muscle cells could probably generate new working muscle mitochondria.
But that didnt work out. I have huge muscles thanks to muscle memory and anabolics but cant use them much.
I still will keep on TRT dosage of 300mg Sustanon per Week for the rest of my life probably. I dont really have problems pinning myself and my T levels were fucked before I started the cycle already. Barely below minimum reference. So coming off TRT is not an option for me.

I wouldnt suggest you try any of these unless you suffer from muscle wasting (bedbound) then it can really be a life saver! As I spent a whole year in bed but still get asked if I work out daily... even tho I can barely do longer walks.


As of now, the greatest addition was injectible NADH I would say. It got my mind back to 90% working and some physical energy. I have been injecting it daily for 40 days now I think and it gave me good quality of life improvements. However we are not talking something like bein even close to leaving the house for several hours in a row!

Do you have a source of injectable nadh?

 

[junkcrap50]

You could mimic this by eating large amounts of glucose/dextrose etc like also proposed by the Stephens Group. But you will fuck up your insulin sensitivity and get fat at the same time. Not really a good option.

Well how much insulin is used or required? (I know insulin supplementation is common with GH & bodybuilders, but what are the risks of using insulin?) Why wouldn't straight insulin screw up your insulin sensitivity.

Also, wouldn't dosing carnitine at meal times provide sufficient insulin? (Thought that would take a long time ~100 days for 10% carnitine increase in muscle).

 

[mitoMAN]

Well how much insulin is used or required? (I know insulin supplementation is common with GH & bodybuilders, but what are the risks of using insulin?) Why wouldn't straight insulin screw up your insulin sensitivity.

Haha thats not how insulin sensitivity works. Its a pretty complex field. But actually administering exogenous Insulin helps with preventing insulin sensitivity due to HGH or the replacement of high sugar intake.
You only need 2iu. Which has no side effects unless you might have a severe insulin related ilness which I am no expert with.
Usually you get a blood gluose measuring device and check your Blood Glucose 15,30,60 min after insulin intake (ultra fast acting one!) to be sure you have no abnormal reaction to it.

Also, wouldn't dosing carnitine at meal times provide sufficient insulin? (Thought that would take a long time ~100 days for 10% carnitine increase in muscle).

no again this is not how insulin works. You want to hit exactly with your intramasuclar injection. Not just at random times. Also insulin wont help if you take oral Carnitine. Just dont take oral Carnitine at all - its a waste of money similar to oral B12 compared to injectible MethylB12 etc.

 

[Wishful]

Carnitine. Just dont take oral Carnitine at all - its a waste of money

I disagree. Oral carnitine was absolutely wonderful in counteracting the increase in symptoms I got from eating fatty acids. Without the oral carnitine, a meat-based meal would make me feel really lousy the next day. With a partial tsp of carnitine, I could eat half a chicken without suffering an increase in my ME symptoms.

While oral carnitine might not be effective for raising levels in muscle cells, it can be very useful for other tasks, such as getting fatty acids into cerebral mitochondria (if that's what it was doing for me).