Placebos result in people saying that they feel better. When objective measurements are used (blood tests, airway function, etc), they don't show any improvement.
See the Shocking Moment She Went From Crippled and Bed-Ridden to Dancing in Worship
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A.B.
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Atheism in that form exists, but it also exists in the neutral form of not believing.
Nielk
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Interesting. I am a religious person yet this totally turns me off. It's almost like only the "believers" merit healing?
Do we then get sick because we deserve it? Only if we attain a lofty level, can we dream of recovery?
There is such a thing as spontaneous recovery from all types of illnesses. There might be a body and mind connection at play.
The problem though with promoting such recoveries is that we are left with a feeling of guilt. As if it is up to us, whether we recover or not.
Do we then get sick because we deserve it? Only if we attain a lofty level, can we dream of recovery?
There is such a thing as spontaneous recovery from all types of illnesses. There might be a body and mind connection at play.
The problem though with promoting such recoveries is that we are left with a feeling of guilt. As if it is up to us, whether we recover or not.
Countrygirl
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Your comment triggered a memory Min. I mentioned Jen Rees Larcombe in an earlier post and recall her story of healing from ME which is told in her book, Unexpected Healing, if anyone should be interested. I have spoken with Jen a few times about her amazing recovery and she said what she found extraordinary was that she regained full muscle power immediately despite years of being confined to a wheelchair. In fact, I still have a photo of her lifting her wheel chair high above her head the following day which took considerable strength.
This all raises profound questions and none of us know the answers. Many fine Christians continue to suffer severely from ME like Linda Crowhurst (Stonebird) so it is not a matter of who is deserving and who is not. It remains a mystery, yet it does happen, even to those who do not expect it or even believe it is possible.
Ambrosia_angel
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I haven't looked completely but from what I have read, they can't dispute physiological changes when a placebo is taken. There have been studies that have shown physiological changes. Just because science doesn't completely understand it doesn't mean that it isn't true.
I don't thing any sort of test will stop these religious "healings" though. They happen with all conditions. And they do work for a lot of people.
A.B.
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Physiological change doesn't equal a cure. I think these physiological changes are just brief temporary reactions, presented in a way that leads the reader to assume that they support the notion that a placebo could cure a health problem.
It's a bit like some CFS research, where they show scary images to people and measure their cortisol, and then claim this being evidence for stress induced illness.
I think some studies dispute that, take this systematic review for example:
Is the Placebo Powerless? — An Analysis of Clinical Trials Comparing Placebo with No Treatment
BACKGROUND
Placebo treatments have been reported to help patients with many diseases, but the quality of the evidence supporting this finding has not been rigorously evaluated.
CONCLUSIONS
We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects. Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain. Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos.
Ambrosia_angel
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That shows that they don't fully understand. Science can't dispute that something happens. They have little evidence for me/cfs too.
I think we shouldn't be so dismissive of people who benefit from these healings. Its like someone being dismissive to us about CFS. Just because there isn't much evidence on placebos or non medical healings make them psychological?
A.B.
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That's actually what the review has done.
Placebos seem to have a mild effect on subjective things such as pain or fatigue. Placebo effects are also more prominent in smaller studies and studies with continuous outcomes.
I don't think it's a coincidence that placebo effects appear stronger in studies that are less reliable.
It's worth noting that placebo effect means any change not attributable to a drug or intervention. So the placebo group captures all sorts of biases. One cannot stress this enough. A large placebo response doesn't mean a large mind-body effect. It can just mean a large bias, or that many of the patients recovered on their own during the study.
I don't exclude that placebos could temporarily show surprising effects, but the emphasis is on temporary. What we care about are long term results.
alex3619
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We have cases of seven years of bedrest in us leading to severe osteoporosis. Getting up and dancing after nine years, presuming that nine years had very little in the way of weight bearing to increase bone density, would probably result in a horrid sound of snap snap snap of bones breaking. Its one of the reasons I really feel for long term bed bound patients at the very severe end. Their problems might not end even if they have a cure.
Nielk
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Just as an aside, that scarring on her face in an ME thing?
I assumed it was sacrificial lamb's blood or some such
But I only looked at a couple frames from the video, didn't watch the whole thing, so didn't know it was in all of the video.Ambrosia_angel
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Okay your point is fair but you clearly ignored what I said about cfs not having much evidence and people being dismissive to us. I guess I'm just open minded. If people will do it to you and me then why should we do it to others. I don't agree with that way of thinking. Treat others as you would like to be treated is how I prefer to think.
Whether placebos or non medical healingd cure people or not; people DO improve. The mind is powerful. Nobody can deny that. You can't test non medical healings under a clinical trial as that would defeat the purpose. so nobody knows. But if someone can get temporary relieve from suffering and pain then that is a job well done in my opinion.
snowathlete
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Just a few points of view from me on this. I haven't watches the video, I doubt it would convince me one way or the other if it was genuine or not. But on this topic...
I'm a christian and I believe God does heal. Some others are christians but don't believe that God heals. In the same way, some non christians may have views either one or the other, and that's fine too.
My mum was dying of Crohns when she was a child, and she was expected to die, but she was healed, so without that having happened I wouldn't be here. Unfortunatley for me, God hasn't healed me as of right now. I don't know why, but I don't believe he heals everyone, and I don't think it is because of a lack of faith on my part. Maybe one day he will heal me. I hope so. But maybe he won't. I would be lying if I said it didn't challenge my faith being in this situation, but at the same time, my belief in God is not conditional of God guarenteeing me health.
Regarding addictions, many require much more than mind over matter, or change of belief. Heroin for instance is usually a serious addiction and even if you want to, you can't just go cold turkey, no matter what support or beliefs you have. You need to come off gradually, or have replacement because your body is addicted. So such instances where true drug addicts are healed of their drug addiction often can't just be ruled out on the basis of substituting one belief for another. In my opinion some people are spiritually healed of their addiction, same as other illnesses, though that doesn't mean that everyone who claims to have been healed has been.
I'm a christian and I believe God does heal. Some others are christians but don't believe that God heals. In the same way, some non christians may have views either one or the other, and that's fine too.
My mum was dying of Crohns when she was a child, and she was expected to die, but she was healed, so without that having happened I wouldn't be here. Unfortunatley for me, God hasn't healed me as of right now. I don't know why, but I don't believe he heals everyone, and I don't think it is because of a lack of faith on my part. Maybe one day he will heal me. I hope so. But maybe he won't. I would be lying if I said it didn't challenge my faith being in this situation, but at the same time, my belief in God is not conditional of God guarenteeing me health.
Regarding addictions, many require much more than mind over matter, or change of belief. Heroin for instance is usually a serious addiction and even if you want to, you can't just go cold turkey, no matter what support or beliefs you have. You need to come off gradually, or have replacement because your body is addicted. So such instances where true drug addicts are healed of their drug addiction often can't just be ruled out on the basis of substituting one belief for another. In my opinion some people are spiritually healed of their addiction, same as other illnesses, though that doesn't mean that everyone who claims to have been healed has been.
SOC
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I'd be interested to know by whom and under what definition she was diagnosed with ME.
Up the street from my MIL's house in KY, there was frequently a tent revival set up. Every night for a week or two several times over the summer, the same woman would be "cured" of a different debilitating illness and arise from her wheelchair, or drop her crutches and dance. The same woman, not using crutches or a wheelchair, was seen setting up the tent before her "cure" and shopping around town during the week. It was all theater, to put the best spin on it. For that reason, I am always skeptical of these kinds of claims. There are too many frauds around.
That isn't to say that miracles can't occur. I just prefer to take sudden miraculous cure stories with a grain of salt until I know more background.
Up the street from my MIL's house in KY, there was frequently a tent revival set up. Every night for a week or two several times over the summer, the same woman would be "cured" of a different debilitating illness and arise from her wheelchair, or drop her crutches and dance. The same woman, not using crutches or a wheelchair, was seen setting up the tent before her "cure" and shopping around town during the week. It was all theater, to put the best spin on it. For that reason, I am always skeptical of these kinds of claims. There are too many frauds around.
That isn't to say that miracles can't occur. I just prefer to take sudden miraculous cure stories with a grain of salt until I know more background.
Tristen
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Countrygirl
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You can believe until you are blue in the face, but this is not what provides the power for healing.