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Ron Davis at San Francisco rally: very close to a biomarker, looks like a mitochondrial problem

Messages
33
i tried coq-10, even took high doses, it did nothing. i even took pqq, also nothing. dont these treatments work? will ron davis invent new treatments?

i didnt know there was a way to test mitochondria, are these tests accurate? how come everybody has 25%? i wonder if there are any healthy people who have 100%
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
i tried coq-10, even took high doses, it did nothing. i even took pqq, also nothing. dont these treatments work? will ron davis invent new treatments?

i didnt know there was a way to test mitochondria, are these tests accurate? how come everybody has 25%? i wonder if there are any healthy people who have 100%

The tests are accurate, but they are not uniformly accepted, certainly not by the NHS.

I have seen many of the mitochondrial function tests by acumen, and they are generally quite different, except universally low in some aspect of atp production. Some people have low whole cell atp, some poor recycling of adp-atp, some poor translocation etc. The 25% is just coincidence I believe, certainly from what I've seen, results are very different but pwme are dysfunctional/low in some or all of the above.

It's a difficult one why the supps don't work, I see it now as the mitochondria as an engine (which in essence they are), if the engine is inherently broken, you can throw all the fuel (supplements) at it but it won't run. A crude analogy, but that's how I see it. I think it is acquired dysfunction by way of viral, bacterial, or simply, oxidative stress.

But it's just guessing. I didn't even know about the groundbreaking work by Robert Naviaux and CDR/ mitochondria until very recently, or that mitochondria even have that function, (and I thought I'd read a fair bit about them!) so there is lots still to be learnt and understood. Davis and co will find the issue.

B
 
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Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
@markiz2001

Ron Davis said:
I think what this disease is, is a fundamental shutdown of the energy generation system in the body. And we can see that from all the molecules we look at. So our type of research is collecting massive data.
I don't think that Ron Davis is necessarily suggesting that there is anything wrong with the mitochondria themselves, he said that there was a shutdown of the system.

The MacLaren/Myhill test has not been independently validated but the ME Association have provided funding for a study which I think compared the Myhill test with an oxidative phosphorylation assay. AFAIK the study has been completed but not yet published.
 
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Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
Messages
1,131
Location
U.K.
@markiz2001


I don't think that Ron Davis is necessarily suggesting that there is anything wrong with the mitochondria themselves, he said that there was a shutdown of the system.

The MacLaren/Myhill test has not been independently validated but the ME Association have provided funding for a study which I think compared the Myhill test with an oxidative phosphorylation assay. AFAIK the study has been completed but not yet published.


The energy system essentially IS the mitochondria, so by way of stating that it suggests they are broken, or at least 'shutdown'. Shutdown=broken? Not sure. It would also correlate with the acumen mitochondrial tests people have had on here also, and other mitochondrial abnormalities dating back to the 50's found in post viral outbreaks. Different to genetic or inherited mitochondrial diseases, so not 'wrong' in that sense. It seems suggested, to me, as the end result of another process.

The CDR mechanism, by the mitochondria, is exactly what could cause this 'shutdown'. It's pretty much a conservation strategy, and if it gets stuck, it is to the detriment of all. I'm hoping that's the issue, as it is suggested/potentially reversible.

Either way, mitochondria seem to strongly be at the core of it all.

B
 
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alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I don't think that Ron Davis is necessarily suggesting that there is anything wrong with the mitochondria themselves, he said that there was a shutdown of the system.
Right, the mitochondria could be shut down due to some other mechanism. Its a multisystem disease after all. Yet a shutdown of mitochondria, with a fully validated test for ME patients, will put most theories of ME to rest.
 

Lynn

Senior Member
Messages
366
i tried coq-10, even took high doses, it did nothing. i even took pqq, also nothing. dont these treatments work? will ron davis invent new treatments?

It may be coincidental but I have been concentrating on the mitochondria. So I am pleased the Ron Davis is honing in on that scenario.

I have been taking MitoQ (a concentrated CoQ10 product) since the Mendus trial began last year. I have no affiliation with the company. It has significantly helped my brain function. I am an artist and could not even draw a straight line in the last few years and had started to develop a tremor in my hands.

In the first six weeks of the trial I could tell I was on the supplement and not the placebo because my gut normalized a bit and I was able to draw a straighter line. A shakiness that I had developed also got better. Though the improvements were small, I could tell when I stopped taking the supplement and began the placebo.

After the placebo arm of the trial, I decided to do a six month trial of the MitoQ myself. I continued on the same 20 mg dosage as the trial (which is double the dosage recommended on the bottle). I started the supplement again on March 3rd. I have continued to take the cognitive tests that were part of the original Mendus trial. Today I took the test again after being on the MitoQ for twelve weeks. The starting point on the graphs below were before I started MitoQ in the trial. The first graph shows a test of grammatical reasoning and the second graph is a test of concentration. You can see by the graphs that my brain power has definitely improved.

upload_2016-5-26_16-22-19.png
upload_2016-5-26_16-24-5.png


There is also a memory test that I am taking.
upload_2016-5-26_16-36-4.png

The graph doesn't show as steep of a climb but I am most proud of my results in this test. It test your ability to remember a series of numbers. Today for the first time I was able to remember nine numbers in a row. Also since beginning MitoQ I consistently can remember 7 numbers. That is amazing to me.

I thought since the mitochondria look to be a good avenue for research, maybe this would be of interest to some. It is a relatively expensive supplement but I know that I will continue to take it. I cannot say that about any of the myriad of supplements that I have tried in the 20 years of this illness.

Lynn
 

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NL93

Senior Member
Messages
155
Location
The Netherlands
It could also be some sort of protective mechanism of the body. To make sure the person rests and does not cause further damage. But then there must be an underlying reason for that. A virus maybe?
We still don't know why ME patients can get so much worse, sometimes permanent, from overexertion. The mitochondria shutting down might be a mechanism to prevent this overexertion.
Or dysfunctioning mitochondria might be the cause of the entire condition. We need so many answers
 

Michelle

Decennial ME/CFS patient
Messages
172
Location
Portland, OR
I would be the first to disregard any comments of mine w/regard to biomechanics of mitochondria but based on my probably woefully inadequate understanding of it all, wouldn't we be having more problems with, say, organ function if mitochondria were the problem?

Sorry if that's a stupid question...
 

Lynn

Senior Member
Messages
366
i know mitoq is the best, but why? is it simply more absorbable? if so, why not just take large dose of coq10 ubiquional? you can get it cheap here:

Ubiquinol-10 improves autonomic nervous function and cognitive function in CFS

I have tried megadoses of ubiquinol with no effect. I can only tell you that MitoQ has a concentrated huge amount of CoQ10 that is absorbable by your body. I did the trial where they provided the MitoQ for free. For the past 12 weeks I have been buying it retail. This is not an ad.

I only thought i should share my experience. When i told my husband that I had done a long post about it, he said, "see it's working". I don't post very often. It's a lot of energy.
 

Hutan

Senior Member
Messages
1,099
Location
New Zealand
Thanks for posting @Lynn. With all the flurry of excitement about mitochondria, I had been wondering how the MitoQ trial went.

I am sure you can tell if you feel better or not - and it sounds as though you feel better. Good news. I might try MitoQ myself.

One thought though - when I did one of the first Mendus trials (on D ribose), the memory test was part of it. I got much better at remembering the strings of numbers over time, I think probably just because I learned a few techniques. Any reported improvements on the cognitive tests due to MitoQ will of course need to take in to account the improvements that occurred with the placebo.

Do you know when the results of the trial will be published?
 

acer2000

Senior Member
Messages
818
How can Ron Davis identify a biomarker w/a few private donations & a couple of pals @ Stanford in, oh say, 6montgs, a year & the NIH couldn't do squat in 30 years?

Some ppl @ the NIH need to go ...

Because Ron Davis is smart and motivated and the NIH hasn't taken the illness seriously or put more than superficial effort in? It's amazing what can be accomplished once someone smart focuses on a problem.
 

Lynn

Senior Member
Messages
366
Thanks for posting @Lynn. With all the flurry of excitement about mitochondria, I had been wondering how the MitoQ trial went.

I am not sure when they will publish the results. Mendus said that the manufacturer was working on a paper so Mendu could not publish the results.

One thought though - when I did one of the first Mendus trials (on D ribose) said:
Yes i have thought that maybe I was learning how to do the tests. But after 20 years of illness it is quite a struggle to learn to do anything new. There is this one test called Polygons which for me was very difficult. You have to be able to see angles of shapes. It used to stress me just trying to see them and now the test is much easier. I believe that it is a true marker that my cognitive abilities are increasing. I can see it in my paintings. I could not have done this painting last year.

GxuDy0VPlJak434Yy7pqIHbDo8DKixGTR4pNqzGmt_vFDnALJnaaIWd2iCmtDd0SMdKYAPwJVbZXLUL_ZZBYRdlxN_qM83VETOiCGLpYEFYwg9Z4T5wI-zic9UmuElZiaX_jLQr86fM6swKN6siWLqoKpwvgfU3XPWx_6XBoVhPpQCJIQKJ7hXHXKRsdyKKE64oBGmbXXF6zituGDKtwQm0vLFCKeG-66TaeolaPfBWC9blXvAz-YJZP8s3eM9ecq4webre9YmFDv1ss8-FLjsINDnZb42hYGp6gBBylAFVNbmSu5sJ2Wb8JkinsKmX5KyrEkeUY8prGFG_A8J8iCb9N-fi7ZUSlfuHv6GK3U381fNlbx6cLuJJs6eMO6q0HQSlKYwhChzuK_GN8Kdg8A33ezP89zQYgJ4Mn4tgX7seX4wwVbTt995n9egjI5Yc6j7tMSE_oLMLRljG3KTKW9Dj7YO_q3212cVrC_DknnLOXXzkpiBAmAKLZ1XHjSd7SIbwodsUJPtpoi9FwfykoMkQXFDRrSo6HOGRBxVf6Gikt1Dpb6cYtzOD5cufkmj09om-0ghKMDgQmLJfBnYRScYsR0wr04HI=w1023-h767-no



I think that the other tests could be better because of learning the techniques. I am not sure.

Just to be clear. My cognitive abilities have increased some but I still have POTS and PEM and can only paint for very short periods of time. But it is worth it to me.

Lynn
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
I would be the first to disregard any comments of mine w/regard to biomechanics of mitochondria but based on my probably woefully inadequate understanding of it all, wouldn't we be having more problems with, say, organ function if mitochondria were the problem?

Sorry if that's a stupid question...

They still work but not good enough.
 

Janet Dafoe

Board Member
Messages
867
We should really all donate as much as we can. It's the fastest way to move it forward.
I just donated some money and will keep doing so.
Because it's not like i can spend money on doing something fun anyways when i am in bed, lol.
Linda Tannenbaum told me she got several donations the day after this post! This kind of advocacy for the research really really helps! Thank you so much! Ron really wants to move fast and needs funding. Every bit helps! Yay!
 
Messages
88
Location
New England, USA
People can also help support the Open Medicine Foundation by choosing the Open Medicine Foundation as their charity when they shop online; at stores such as AmazonSmile, who will donate a percentage of their purchase price to the charity of their choice.

Tell everyone about our greatest, most wonderful, bravest advocate, Whitney Dafoe. Tell everyone about the extraordinary Davis-Dafoe family. Tell everyone about the team of exemplary scientists and the work being done at the Open Medicine Foundation. Ask them to make direct donations to the Open Medicine Foundation and/or donations through online purchases.

We also need to stand together in demanding substantial funding for the essential work that the Open Medicine Foundation is doing researching severe patients and all patients. We desperately need research and outreach into the population of severe ME/CFS patients. Severe patients can't wait.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
It makes sense to me that the mitochondria could be affected, from how I experience my own symptoms - reading a few years ago on mito disorders I thought it sounded a lot like my illness and of course Dr Myhill has been convinced of this for years. However I cant see how this ties in with immune issues (I certainly have those) for example reactivated viruses, high bacterial loads, autoimmune anitbodies, high levels of pro inflammatory cytokines etc, nd how it fits with the work of Fluge and Mella and B cells - anyone? (this is not my strong point so bear with me)
 

Janet Dafoe

Board Member
Messages
867
@Sasha (or anyone!) - I have a question, it feels rather dumb, but anyways, are the Open Medicine Institute in Mountain View and the Open Medicine Foundation in Agoura Hills (per its website) related? The names are way too similar for different entities. I'm going to make a donation to the OMF but I think in the past I may have donated to OMI, thinking it was OMF .......

Also I'm a little confused (I guess I'm just foggy today!), I thought OMF was up north in Stanford perhaps? And Ron Davis was at the San Francisco event. But Agoura Hills is in southern California --
The Open Medicine Foundation, OMF, is a completely independent organization from the Open Medicine Institute, OMI.

The OMF was started by Linda Tannenbaum to raise money for neuroimmune diseases, upon a request by Andy Kogelnik. She started it by herself, is the CEO, and it's completely independent of OMI. Linda was fundraising for the OMI for a while at the beginning.

The OMI is Andy Kogelnik's Institute where he maintains his clinical practice, as does David Kaufman, and they do some research.

I met Linda at a support group meeting a few years ago, and she came over to our home that very day to meet Ron and help us with tips for fundraising for our Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Research Center at Stanford University.

They quickly realized that if they teamed up they would be a powerful team, with Linda leading the fundraising and Ron being the Director of the OMF Scientific Advisory Board, in charge of all the research.

This allowed Ron to realize his mission of putting together an amazing team of Nobel Laureates and National Academy of Sciences members, all with long and deep track records of success in science and publishing, creative, out of the box thinking, and a low "arrogance to intellect" ratio, as Ron puts it. These people are truly amazing and brilliant, and scientists like this haven't ever tried to tackle ME/CFS before.

So now OMF fundraises for the reserach that Ron plans and supervises (and does, along with other top-notch scientists that he recruits), and OMF is not raising money for OMI any more.

Andy, at OMI, is on the Scientific Advisory Board for OMF that Ron put together, and we need a doctor to recruit patients for the studies, to do the blood draws, etc, and luckily, Andy is really smart and has some research capability at OMI so he is doing some of the tests.

Most of the tests are being done elsewhere, at the very best possible places that exist, with the most cutting edge capabilities.

The samples are being sent to Stanford's immunology dept and genetics dept, to Ron's Genome Center (where the CFS Research Center at Stanford is), to Harvard, to Dr. Naviaux, at UCSD, to Metabolon, a company that Ron has consulted with over the years as they developed their mass spectrometry to measure metabolites, and to other labs that have agreed to do the tests at their cost, saving a LOT of money.

The CFS Research Center at Stanford is where Ron has a growing team of amazing scientists from several disciplines (different from the OMF Scientific Advisory Board), including Laurel Crosby, some engineers, some bioinformatics people, great smart Stanford people, and they meet every week to share progress, thoughts and plan together.

They get calls now from doctors and researchers all over that are beginning to hear about this from Ron (who has great credibility, so if he says it's a good thing to work on, they take notice) and are interested in finding out more and collaborating.

He even has some students working on it - great progress because that used to be a death knell for a career if you worked on CFS. Not any more in Ron's lab!

People sometimes get confused about where to donate. The main place is OMF, because Linda is able to pay for the research anywhere Ron wants to get it done, and the more OMF raises, the more credibility she has to raise more.

Money given to the CFS Research Center at Stanford must be spent at Stanford on Ron's CFS research, or the work in the immunology department or genetics department, all on Ron's CFS work for the End ME/CFS project - just the Stanford parts of it. So the money given to either place goes to the CFS work Ron is doing or directing.

But the best place to donate is OMF. I hope this helps. I know it's confusing.

OMF is run in Southern California by Linda Tannenbaum, who is CEO. OMI, where Andy Kogelnik's clinic is, is in Mountain View, CA. Ron Davis is a professor of genetics and biochemistry at Stanford, Director of the Stanford Genome Technology Center, and Director of the CFS Research Center at Stanford and lives in Palo Alto and works at Stanford.

Linda flew up from S Cal to attend the event on Wednesday. She is AWESOME. She is going to the London conference with Ron. They are a great team.

I help behind the scenes with ideas and strategies and writing, and whatever else I can do. Twitter. LOL. And Ashley, our daughter, Whitney's sister, does lots of advocacy and helps in lots of ways too. She manages the CFSResearch Center fb page and does what she can for fundraising too.

We are totally dedicated to solving this puzzle as fast as possible!
 
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