Re : Norway Patent for ME/CFS treatment using Oxalate

[mariovitali]

Wow, that's interesting. What is the name of the software?

There is no name for it, it is a methodology of combining several techniques that i came up with.

 

[hmnr asg]

@mariovitali
Are you looking at just the abstracts ?
Also what is the result of this hypothesis? Are you finding correlation ? And if yes how does that prove causation ? I mean just because you dumped a large corpus of text into an NLP algorithm and found some co-occurence it doesnt mean you found anything of value .
I'm sure I will find a lot of co-occurence between the terms "Micheal Jackson" and "propofol", but that doesn't mean propofol causes Micheal Jackson*.

* He died as a result of a propofol overdose

H

 

[mariovitali]

@mariovitali
Are you looking at just the abstracts ?
Also what is the result of this hypothesis? Are you finding correlation ? And if yes how does that prove causation ? I mean just because you dumped a large corpus of text into an NLP algorithm and found some co-occurence it doesnt mean you found anything of value .
I'm sure I will find a lot of co-occurence between the terms "Micheal Jackson" and "propofol", but that doesn't mean propofol causes Micheal Jackson*.

* He died as a result of a propofol overdose

H

Good question.


Your way of thinking makes sense but it’s a bit simplistic. There are already companies doing this and in a nutshell , we are finding both known and unknown relationships between Medical topics of interest.

Unfortunately I cannot go into the details but so far , this technology was able to identify key aspects of ME/CFS (Pyruvate Dehydrogenase, Bile Acid metabolism, Fatty Acid metabolism, possible Liver issues) before any other Researcher.

Given my complete lack of knowledge in Medical Science I would say that these are quite interesting events that deserve further evaluation.

The software looks at the abstracts only.

 

[hmnr asg]

Good question.


Your way of thinking makes sense but it’s a bit simplistic. There are already companies doing this and in a nutshell , we are finding both known and unknown relationships between Medical topics of interest.

Unfortunately I cannot go into the details but so far , this technology was able to identify key aspects of ME/CFS (Pyruvate Dehydrogenase, Bile Acid metabolism, Fatty Acid metabolism, possible Liver issues) before any other Researcher.

Given my complete lack of knowledge in Medical Science I would say that these are quite interesting events that deserve further evaluation.

The software looks at the abstracts only.

The only rebuttal to my criticism that you gave me was that my view is too simplistic.
Please send me ONE , just ONE , credible paper from any legitimate machine learning/NLP conference where the cause of, or the cure to, a disease was found purely by running an ML algorithm on pubmed.
Also your proof for the validity of your algorithm is just that it has had some outputs that have ended up being relevant to CFS according to latest research.

The root of my skepticism is that no ML algorithm can synthesis new knowledge out of nothingness. Can you run your algorithm on pubmed and find the cure for cancer ? The elixir of eternal youth ? Also if you build a knowledge graph of medicine CFS it stands alone as a singular node. What structure is there for an ML algorithm to discover?

H

 

[mariovitali]

@hmnr asg

Your way of thinking is simplistic because you do not know the technology. The example with Michael Jackson is an unfortunate one in the sense that NLP and the discovery of associations do much more than what you think you know.

In the example you provided, NLP will output that propofol is associated with deaths (given there are many entries to suggest that) and not that propofol causes Michael Jackson. Given the right implementation NLP and NLU (Natural Language Understanding) provides the context of the association. If you knew how this technology works you would know that.

I will post a more detailed answer to your scepticism soon.

 

[hmnr asg]

So far you are just saying I lack any understanding.
That may be true but please let the code/paper be the arbitrator of this disagreement.
I don't work in ML but I have a PhD in electrical engineering. I sometimes read ML papers and I think I get the idea most of the time. Also I'm ok good with Python ( I'm assuming you used Python like most NLP folk these days ?) Also I know my deep learning in case that is what you have used here.

So please don't talk to me like I'm a 6 year old. My Micheal Jackson example might have been too simplistic but I have no idea what you are doing and I just hope to come to some understanding.

H

 

[mariovitali]

@hmnr asg

Again, I find that you are overly confident to a subject you do not know very well.

Most “NLP Folks” do not use Python but specialised software for implementing NLP techniques in a proper manner.

If you would take a closer look to the snapshots I provided you would see that I probably use a Python package called scikit-learn which has nothing to do with Deep Learning. If you really had knowledge on this you would have known from the name of the algorithms.

Please do not criticise in such a way something you do not quite understand.

 

[hmnr asg]

I think we got off the wrong foot.
I sincerely apologise if I have seemed insulting or minimized your hard work in anyway . I am a CFS sufferer myself and I really appreciate any effort on the part of anyone who is trying to find a cure. So I very much appreciate your hard work as well. I don't work in NLP but I really like to understand! If I seem overconfident please forgive me. Before my CFS started i did tend to be arrogant and these days when my old tendencies resurface I just remind myself that I am merely a shell of my former self and even reading more than an hour causes me a crash. So please believe me when I say I'm not over confident ! A lot of meaning gets lost over text and so I apologize again and I thank you once more for your hard work.

And I know about scikit-learn, I also know its not used for deep learning. But again, my experience is second hand and if you did decide to give me some added information it would be great . And if not that's also fine. I'm sure you have better things to do than to argue with a guy who rarely leaves his bed

H

 

[mariovitali]

No problem,

If we say that the technology is a black box , we keep only where it points at. In this case it points to the Liver and to specific pathways which I forwarded to several Researchers.

I am trying for the past 3 years to have them look at this hypothesis and to test it under strictly controlled conditions.

I cannot possibly know if this technology is correct but there is evidence that it may well be, at least for a subset of ME/CFS patients. I do not find the fact that people after many years of problems got symptom free ( this includes my self) a random event

If you wish to know more about the implementation PM me, I will be happy to help you out but have in mind that the methodology used is Patent-pending so there is a limit to what I can disclose

 

[Violeta]

cc : @Janet Dafoe (Rose49)

I just completed another round of analysis using Machine Learning. Lactate was not part of the Medical topics being looked at and so i added it to the software to see its relevance to ME/CFS.


In previous runs, Liver Disease was the most relevant topic, followed by Sepsis and Norepinephrine. To my amazement, Lactate has risen to the top-5 positions. Here is a snapshot from the run :

View attachment 27588

Note that -by far-, the most relevant topic is Liver Disease.


A second type of analysis, tries to identify associations between Medical Topics. I therefore added Lactate to see what the software would come up with. In other words the question here is "which potentially relevant Medical Topics to ME/CFS are associated with Lactate ?" Here is the snapshot :



View attachment 27587

PDHC is Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Complex. NDUFS7 has been discussed in Phoenix Rising as well , where a user talks about elevated Lactate levels :

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...utations-in-ndufs7-what-does-this-mean.30516/

​

Serum lactate levels in cirrhosis and non-cirrhosis patients with septic shock​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...lays the major,of lactate during septic shock.


The liver plays the major role in lactate elimination, so impaired liver function could decrease it [11]. Therefore, in septic shock patients with documented cirrhosis, impaired liver function might result in higher lactate levels, impaired lactate clearance, and delayed normalization of lactate during septic shock.

So the relationship between the liver and lactate is that the condition of the liver affects the elimination of lactate.

 

[Violeta]

cc : @Janet Dafoe (Rose49)

I just completed another round of analysis using Machine Learning. Lactate was not part of the Medical topics being looked at and so i added it to the software to see its relevance to ME/CFS.


In previous runs, Liver Disease was the most relevant topic, followed by Sepsis and Norepinephrine. To my amazement, Lactate has risen to the top-5 positions. Here is a snapshot from the run :

View attachment 27588

Note that -by far-, the most relevant topic is Liver Disease.


A second type of analysis, tries to identify associations between Medical Topics. I therefore added Lactate to see what the software would come up with. In other words the question here is "which potentially relevant Medical Topics to ME/CFS are associated with Lactate ?" Here is the snapshot :



View attachment 27587

PDHC is Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Complex. NDUFS7 has been discussed in Phoenix Rising as well , where a user talks about elevated Lactate levels :

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...utations-in-ndufs7-what-does-this-mean.30516/

Norepinephrine is a surprise!

Background:

Adrenaline directly increases lactate release and lipolysis and inhibits insulin-stimulated glucose uptake in the perfused human leg. Adrenaline has no direct effects on peripheral amino acid metabolism.

Epinephrine also induces hyperglycemia and hyperlactatemia. In hyperkinetic septic shock, epinephrine consistently increases arterial pressure and cardiac output in a dose dependent manner. Epinephrine transiently increases lactate levels through an increase in aerobic glycolysis.

Still looking for norepinephrine.

Epinephrine and norepinephrine are very similar neurotransmitters and hormones. While epinephrine has slightly more of an effect on your heart, norepinephrine has more of an effect on your blood vessels. Both play a role in your body's natural fight-or-flight response to stress and have important medical uses as well.



What Does Norepinephrine Do? Together with adrenaline, norepinephrine increases heart rate and blood pumping from the heart. It also increases blood pressure and helps break down fat and increase blood sugar levels to provide more energy to the body.

Epinephrine-induced lactic acidosis following cardiopulmonary bypass​

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9377884/#:~:text=None of the 17 patients,01).​

Six of the 19 patients who received epinephrine developed lactic acidosis.
None of the 17 patients receiving norepinephrine developed lactic acidosis. In the epinephrine group, but not in the norepinephrine group, lactate concentration increased significantly at times 1 and 2 (p = . 01), while pH and base excess decreased (p < or = . 01)

 

[JES]

Norepinephrine is a surprise!

Getting off topic since this is a five year old thread about the use of a patent applied oxalate mixture for ME/CFS treatment.

To my knowledge, nothing new from this Norwegian research has come out since 2018 and the main person involved with this was not a doctor.

It would be interesting to have more people try this though as I did experience a big surge in energy about an hour after eating 50 g spinach with no other food, but not many people have had the same experience.

 

[Violeta]

Dolichol is made in the mevalonate pathway. Is there something that needs to be fixed in order to correct the dolichol deficiency problem?