Qs on the Rich protocol

[Johnmac]

I have a friend with some emotional/psychological problems, on whom I'd like to try Rich's protocol (which was a great help to me in the more physical realm).

The Yasko people claim to have "updated" Rich's protocol...

http://knowyourgenetics.com/media/pdf/Simplified Protocol.pdf

...but somehow many new supplements have been added (all available from the Yasko people) - making the protocol way more expensive & complex than it was.

I'd rather stick with the original formula as I know it works. I can order the methyl B12, the folic and folinic, and the lecithin, from iHerb - no need to pay Yasko prices. However Rich's multivitamin/mineral has been replaced by Yasko's new "All In One". There doesn't seem to be anything parallel to this at iHerb, as it contains low dose items that support the methylation cycle (nucleotides, SAMe, THF, etc), omits iron & copper, and contains specific general supportive vitamins & minerals.

1. How essential is this All In One to the Rich formula?

2. Am I right in assuming I can get the iHerb methyl B12, the folic and folinic, and lecithin instead of the more expensive Yasko ones?

3. Any other major evolutions in the SMP since I tried it 18 months ago? (I have great respect for Fredd, but want to try this way first for various reasons.)

Thanks to all,

John

 

[brenda]

Hi John

I have been thinking about the Yasko All-In-One but it has folic acid in, and even though it is a small amount, I am undecided.

 

[Johnmac]

My problem is more that I want to order everything from iHerb to save on shipping; & also because Yasko is pretty expensive.

What's wrong with it having a bit of folinic? That's part of the protocol anyway...

(Sorry if that's a dumb question - I haven't studied this for quite a while.)

Hi John

I have been thinking about the Yasko All-In-One but it has folic acid in, and even though it is a small amount, I am undecided.

 

[xrunner]

@Johnmac,
I didn't tolerate the multi all in one so the way I did it was as follows:
- Perque B12
- Thorne B basic, b complex without folic acid and all the folinic acid and methylfolate needed (now I think it has only methylfolate)
- a multimineral
- phoschol
It worked fine for me.

 

[brenda]

My problem is more that I want to order everything from iHerb to save on shipping; & also because Yasko is pretty expensive.

What's wrong with it having a bit of folinic? That's part of the protocol anyway...

(Sorry if that's a dumb question - I haven't studied this for quite a while.)

It is folic acid not folinic, which is a manufactured form and not absorbed by some people.

 

[heapsreal]

I thought many use Jarrows brand supps for alot of these supps and they are of good quality and cheap.

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks for that feedback.

Could you kindly clarify what the supporting multi should NOT contain? )Folic acid, right? Anything else)

Could I for example use the Solgar multi B from iHerb?

http://au.iherb.com/Solgar-B-Complex-with-Vitamin-C-250-Tablets/12650

 

[PeterPositive]

Thanks for that feedback.

Could you kindly clarify what the supporting multi should NOT contain? )Folic acid, right? Anything else)

Could I for example use the Solgar multi B from iHerb?

http://au.iherb.com/Solgar-B-Complex-with-Vitamin-C-250-Tablets/12650

The Solgar Multi contains folic acid and a non well-defined form of B12 which is likely to be cyanocobalamin. Not the best choice.

I can recommend this one:
http://www.supersmart.com/en--Vitamins--Coenzymated-B-Formula--0540

which uses active forms of all Bs, active B12 and no folic acid. Also it's sublingual which is a plus. 1/2 or 1 lozenge can be more than enough to start, even if they suggest 2 lozenges/day. IMO is too high.

I am sure other people here can recommend other good alternatives.

 

[Valentijn]

Yasko is not an MD, and her primary business is selling supplements.

If you think something might help you, I'd definitely get it from a place with reasonable prices and often better ingredients. I'd also bypass most of her additional complexities (CBS, AHCY, VDR, etc) as a likely marketing strategy with little or no scientific basis, since the SNPs she tests are mostly or entirely irrelevant to the functioning of those genes.

And if the real basics don't help, you can always try the obscenely priced supplements in tiny amounts from her website later

 

[adreno]

Actually Rich considered updating his protocol to include the Thorne Basic Nutrients multi, which contains no folic acid, and can be easily dosed/titrated. It's in some of his posts somewhere.

 

[Freddd]

My problem is more that I want to order everything from iHerb to save on shipping; & also because Yasko is pretty expensive.

What's wrong with it having a bit of folinic? That's part of the protocol anyway...

(Sorry if that's a dumb question - I haven't studied this for quite a while.)

Hi Johnmac,

The thing wrong with folinic acid is that for those susceptible to it (unknown percentage), folinic acid blocks l-methylfolate even worse than folic acid, possibly because it simply has a longer serum half life. The reason I suggest avoiding both at the front end is that it can make getting methylation started a puzzling and difficult trial. If one gets methylation started and then tries a folinic trial and methylation stops and paradoxical folate deficiency starts that makes it easy. A person can know in a few days instead of an initial startup struggle not knowing whether it is folinic causing donut hole deficiency because it worked or if it is paradoxical folate deficiency because it is blocking methylfolate. It gives two different answers to the same question. Then it has to be eliminated anyway in order to know whether it was effective or not. The cost is time of possibly keeping neurological damage progressing for longer.

 

[Johnmac]

Actually Rich considered updating his protocol to include the Thorne Basic Nutrients multi, which contains no folic acid, and can be easily dosed/titrated. It's in some of his posts somewhere.

Thanks adreno.

I found the Rich quote - it's in his final version of the SMP:

I had considered use of the Thorne Basic V supplement, and some people tried it and reported that they did well with it. However, others did not respond well to it, and use of it does not allow separate adjustment of dosages for the active folates, which some PWMEs must limit to very small amounts because they react very strongly to it. Also, this multi does not include some of the helpful nutrients that are in the Neuro Health Formula, and it does include lipoic acid, which reportedly can mobilize and redeposit mercury if not dosed frequently enough.

The Thorne contains calcium folinate (anyone know what that is?) And it's pretty expensive.

No alpha lipoic acid now (I tend to agree with Cutler that you should only use that 3-hourly round the clock if you have any mercury onboard).

So, still searching for a reasonably priced methylation support multi available thru iHerb.

 

[Johnmac]

Yasko is not an MD, and her primary business is selling supplements.

If you think something might help you, I'd definitely get it from a place with reasonable prices and often better ingredients. I'd also bypass most of her additional complexities (CBS, AHCY, VDR, etc) as a likely marketing strategy with little or no scientific basis, since the SNPs she tests are mostly or entirely irrelevant to the functioning of those genes.

And if the real basics don't help, you can always try the obscenely priced supplements in tiny amounts from her website later

Thanks Valentjin,

Yep, I don't really have a good feeling from the Yasko people. I asked them to explain why the supposed "new SMP" was suddenly so complex and expensive, and they stopped replying. It's "dedicated to the memory of Rich von K", which might be a little tacky.

 

[Johnmac]

Hi Johnmac,

The thing wrong with folinic acid is that for those susceptible to it (unknown percentage), folinic acid blocks l-methylfolate even worse than folic acid, possibly because it simply has a longer serum half life. The reason I suggest avoiding both at the front end is that it can make getting methylation started a puzzling and difficult trial. If one gets methylation started and then tries a folinic trial and methylation stops and paradoxical folate deficiency starts that makes it easy. A person can know in a few days instead of an initial startup struggle not knowing whether it is folinic causing donut hole deficiency because it worked or if it is paradoxical folate deficiency because it is blocking methylfolate. It gives two different answers to the same question. Then it has to be eliminated anyway in order to know whether it was effective or not. The cost is time of possibly keeping neurological damage progressing for longer.

Thanks so much Freddd!

That all makes sense, so I've cancelled the order for the Solgar multi.

Can you recommend a reasonably priced methylation support multi available thru iHerb?

 

[Valentijn]

It's "dedicated to the memory of Rich von K", which might be a little tacky.

Yes, that part felt quite slimy. Selling an over-priced product by exploiting the reputation of a dead man who can't protest and who spent a great deal of his time helping very sick people for no gain at all.

It's pretty disgusting, actually.

 

[adreno]

Thanks adreno.

I found the Rich quote - it's in his final version of the SMP:

I had considered use of the Thorne Basic V supplement, and some people tried it and reported that they did well with it. However, others did not respond well to it, and use of it does not allow separate adjustment of dosages for the active folates, which some PWMEs must limit to very small amounts because they react very strongly to it. Also, this multi does not include some of the helpful nutrients that are in the Neuro Health Formula, and it does include lipoic acid, which reportedly can mobilize and redeposit mercury if not dosed frequently enough.

The Thorne contains calcium folinate (anyone know what that is?) And it's pretty expensive.

No alpha lipoic acid now (I tend to agree with Cutler that you should only use that 3-hourly round the clock if you have any mercury onboard).

So, still searching for a reasonably priced methylation support multi available thru iHerb.

Well, you could also go with this one:

http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-...-Vitamin-Mineral-Complex-90-Veggie-Caps/50548

Or you could do as some of us do, take a B complex and other vitamins/minerals separately so we can adjust the dose of each. Some even take individual B vitamins too, although this can be a hassle.

BTW, calcium folinate is folinic acid. The Thorne multi is only expensive if you take all 6 caps, if you take 3 for example, the price is very reasonable. Many cannot tolerate the full dose.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks so much Freddd!

That all makes sense, so I've cancelled the order for the Solgar multi.

Can you recommend a reasonably priced methylation support multi available thru iHerb?

I go with a very basic Nature Made b-complex (product # 1338, no folic acid, no CyCbl) that has B1 at 30mg in two tablets, B2 with 20.4mg in two tablets and 100mg B3 for 2 tablets (1 tablet twice a day). I get it at a local pharmacy. That is barely low enough to not generally cause an insatiable need for l-methylfolate and potassium while slowing down or shutting off healing. Then I add all the things like biotin, pantithine, p5p, Inositol, choline and so forth and get some of the minerals in a mineral multi and fill it out with separates. Yup, it's a lot of pills and capsules.

 

[Sherpa]

I need to keep it simple... avoid hand fulls of pills (and paying handfulls of cash) if possible. Any other opinions or experience with this Doctors Best multi for basic methylation support? http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-...Vitamin-Mineral-Complex-90-Veggie-Caps/50548#