Psychology Today Opinion piece regarding the IOM release

[Esther12]

Er, surely if that were true the unconscious mind would come up with a totally different set of symptoms since there is no medical condition in our culture considered more unserious and ridiculous than ME/CFS.

And he put a lot of hard work into inducing this curative contempt. Very ungrateful of us not to all recover as we should do.

 

[Sean]

If only doctors could get rid of patients, clinical work would be so much easier.

 

[Kati]

If only doctors could get rid of patients, clinical work would be so much easier.

Oh, they do, @Sean. 2examples for you.

1) the rheumatologist whom I waited to see for 7 months and in the first 5minutes of me entering her office said "oh, I don't do chronic fatigue"

2) the internist whom I saw for an CT positive ankle problem, who found out I had ME, wrote in his consultation " as you know with a patient like her the last thing we should do is reinforce to her that she has a physical illness..."

 

[Sean]

Oh, I meant all patients. They just get in the way of running a nice clean efficient error-free health system.

 

[Kyla]

"Should complaints about this hate piece by Psychiatrist Edward Shorter be made to the Royal College of Physicians and surgeons of Canada, to the University of Toronto where he is Professor, or is it just not worth it for an inimportant bigot?"

YES!!! I do think this merits a complaint. I live in Toronto (where this bigot apparently "teaches"). This article is not an intellectual argument from a competing perspective (which would reference proof and attempt to build an argument on it), but a hate-fuelled rant that just ignores the idea of facts altogether. ugh, I pretty much should just stop reading this type of thing, but I think that is a pretty widely read publication, so those views are going to go out to the public as "expert" opinion. I believe in free speech, but there should still be accountability for what academics put forth as "fact". I have no idea how to lodge that kind of complaint, but would be happy as a Canadian to assist anyone that wants to do so. If someone is already doing this, I suggest you please reference Betsy Keller's recent comment that "Given what we have learned in the past eight years about this illness, it is intellectually embarrassing to suggest that ME is a psychological illness".

 

[Kyla]

...and by the way, it has a neurological diagnostic code in Ontario (the province where Toronto is located). (Unfortunately the code uses the name "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome" and not ME), but it is a recognized neurological diagnosis. http://www.meassociation.org.uk/2010/04/mecfs-given-official-recognition-by-ontario-government/

 

[Undisclosed]

"Should complaints about this hate piece by Psychiatrist Edward Shorter be made to the Royal College of Physicians and surgeons of Canada, to the University of Toronto where he is Professor, or is it just not worth it for an inimportant bigot?"

YES!!! I do think this merits a complaint. I live in Toronto (where this bigot apparently "teaches"). This article is not an intellectual argument from a competing perspective (which would reference proof and attempt to build an argument on it), but a hate-fuelled rant that just ignores the idea of facts altogether. ugh, I pretty much should just stop reading this type of thing, but I think that is a pretty widely read publication, so those views are going to go out to the public as "expert" opinion. I believe in free speech, but there should still be accountability for what academics put forth as "fact". I have no idea how to lodge that kind of complaint, but would be happy as a Canadian to assist anyone that wants to do so. If someone is already doing this, I suggest you please reference Betsy Keller's recent comment that "Given what we have learned in the past eight years about this illness, it is intellectually embarrassing to suggest that ME is a psychological illness".

Edward Shorter is not a psychiatrist or any kind of doctor. Even if he was a Psychiatrist, you would report him to the "Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons" and they would most likely discount any complaint unless it came from an actual patient (not always). It's hard to get any kind of action when these doctors do harm. They let a psychiatrist who was repeatedly sexually abusing patients for over 20 years, despite being reported and having his licence suspended twice for 6 months - 12 months, continue to practice. He was finally reported to the police, they did an investigation, and found over 20 victims. He got 4 years in jail, serving his time now. His license his still at this point suspended not removed. So if this the way they let psychiatrists get away with abuse, they certainly would do absolutely nothing about any doctore writing an opinion piece.

 

[lazzlazz]

Links to archived versions of comments from the Psyc Today article, in case they are removed at some point
mostly Feb 20, 2015 comments: http://web.archive.org/web/20150304...c-fatigue-in-the-context-the-history-medicine
Mostly Feb 23, 2015 comments: https://web.archive.org/web/2015022...essed/201502/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-is-back

Any time you think a webpage should be archived, go to
waybackmachine.org, scroll down, and insert the URL of the webpage into the SAVE PAGE NOW window. It only archives the exact URL you enter; if you want to archive multiple pages, you have to enter multiple URLs.

Here is an email I sent to the editor of Psychology Today at https://www.psychologytoday.com/experts/kaja-perina
I have lost all respect for Psychology Today after reading the diatribe on chronic fatigue syndrome written by Shorter. The people writing comments to the article are better informed than he is, and his comments (especially given the scientific evidence against them) are extremely harmful to patients.

Shorter's comments should be removed from your website, if your website is to have any respectability, or at the very least, should be prefaced by an editorial comment saying that there is scientific evidence which contradicts his opinion. Shorter says there is no scientific evidence for the existence of CFS (or SEID, or whatever name is chosen for it). Leonard James, a clinical psychologist who was quoted in another article on CFS, would clearly disagree - perhaps he should write this editorial comment.

If you read the comments following the article (some of which were removed, but have been archived in the internet archive), you will see that "DM on February 20, 2015 - 4:36am " found plenty of scientific evidence in peer-reviewed journals (other commenters did as well).

You as editor may not be a scientist, but you have access to them, and if your magazine is retain any amount of credibility, you simply cannot allow the kind of garbage that Shorter published.

 

[Kyla]

Edward Shorter is not a psychiatrist or any kind of doctor. Even if he was a Psychiatrist, you would report him to the "Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons" and they would most likely discount any complaint unless it came from an actual patient (not always). It's hard to get any kind of action when these doctors do harm. They let a psychiatrist who was repeatedly sexually abusing patients for over 20 years, despite being reported and having his licence suspended twice for 6 months - 12 months, continue to practice. He was finally reported to the police, they did an investigation, and found over 20 victims. He got 4 years in jail, serving his time now. His license his still at this point suspended not removed. So if this the way they let psychiatrists get away with abuse, they certainly would do absolutely nothing about any doctore writing an opinion piece.

Hi I actually was quoting and responding to someone else on the board who suggested it, but didn't know how to tag them. I see what you are saying about reporting him as a doctor, I actually was thinking more about reporting to something like a University ethics board. not sure how if this applies since it was not published in an academic journal. I'm sure at best he would get a slap on the wrist, but a professor who is also a science-denier who is making abusive remarks about patients seems like it would be embarrassing for them at the very least

 

[Wildcat]

.

Edward Shorter is not a doctor. He is an academic Historian (Phd) who has written a history of medicine and works within the Psychiatric Department of Toronto University. He is listed as a Professor of Psychiatry, but as an academic, not as any form of doctor including psychiatrist.
.

 

[Kati]

Hi I actually was quoting and responding to someone else on the board who suggested it, but didn't know how to tag them. I see what you are saying about reporting him as a doctor, I actually was thinking more about reporting to something like a University ethics board. not sure how if this applies since it was not published in an academic journal. I'm sure at best he would get a slap on the wrist, but a professor who is also a science-denier who is making abusive remarks about patients seems like it would be embarrassing for them at the very least

i have reported him to the faculty of medicine (I may have said that before) and to a federal politician, more to come.

Even though he is not a physician, he has a job, and has a code of conduct to observe. Every workplace has a code of conduct.

 

[Kyla]

i have reported him to the faculty of medicine (I may have said that before) and to a federal politician, more to come.

Even though he is not a physician, he has a job, and has a code of conduct to observe. Every workplace has a code of conduct.

Thank you for doing that. I hope they take some action, or at least reply.

 

[Kati]

For those who have tried to reach the dean of the faculty of medicine at University of Toronto, I have just phoned the office of the dean and the address that was mentioned on this thread while not wrong, is not the optimal address to send it to.

try instead meddean.admin@utoronto.ca

 

[Cheshire]

Not only does Mr Shorter dismiss ME/SEID/CFS, analyse depression through a sexist pattern, but he also defends a terrible treatment, RCT https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo.../201312/electroconvulsive-therapy-in-children


This post describes the reality of this pseudo treatment, more affiliated to torture than anything else. http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/02/electroshocking-children-stopped/ Edward Shorter’s view is mere revisionism.


Edit: not disappeared at all! Thanks @chipmunk1
(The depression post where Shorter describes depression as something like women’s role, a behavior learnt by girls all along their childhood, mysteriously disappeared…)

 

[chipmunk1]

The depression post where Shorter describes depression as something like women’s role, a behavior learnt by girls all along their childhood, mysteriously disappeared

it is still there with a few more comments.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-everyone-became-depressed/201502/depression-role-women

Wondering where the research is here. Oh, there isn't any?

Well then, perhaps you can write your next opinion piece on how men have learned the following roles instead of
depression: Annoying, Needy, Lazy, Selfish, Clueless.

"They understand what female behavior is all about, and one aspect of adult femininity is constant battling with “depression.”

On what scientific basis is this claim built upon? I'd be happy to know.
But I'm afraid it's more repressentative of Mr Shorter's distorted and sexist view of women than anything else.

The high pecerntage of suicides are men which means men can't be jumping for joy inside, or less depressed. Females have wider social networks, are more likely to talk about their feelings, and more likely to seek medical or psychological attention.

But good luck with that crazy line of reasoning.

 

[Roy S]

Shorter states that shock therapy is safe. The comment by Dr. Toby Watson shows that it is not.
　
　

 

[chipmunk1]

Shorter states that shock therapy is safe. The comment by Dr. Toby Watson shows that it is not.
　
　

He suggests that it is safe for children(with developing brains) including those with developmental disorders. I doubt that there are many studies(if any) on the long-term effects of ECT in children.

In Colorado and Texas, ECT is flat out forbidden for children under 16. Who knew what they were thinking, these legislators who believed themselves capable of deciding who needed ECT and who didn’t. They were “protecting” children. Protecting them from what?

In Tennesse your child may have ECT only for “mania or severe depression.” Hey, the legislators didn’t know about conditions like catatonia, common in children with autism and Intellectual Disability

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo.../201312/electroconvulsive-therapy-in-children

 

[Kyla]

Do you know if there is somewhere public on Psychology Today to put up a reply? or letters to the editor (though I assume those would be ignored)
Did you send this directly to him?
They closed the comments long before I had completed my long reply, but would still like an outlet for my rage about this piece

 

[Kati]

Do you know if there is somewhere public on Psychology Today to put up a reply? or letters to the editor (though I assume those would be ignored)
Did you send this directly to him?
They closed the comments long before I had completed my long reply, but would still like an outlet for my rage about this piece

Hi Kyla, I wrote an email to the dean of the faculty of medicine, (you can check recent posts, I posted the better email). He is an employee of the University of Toronto and teaches students. The outrage fo me is right there. He has a position of influence and writing a piece like this is absolutely inappropriate.

Writing to Shorter himself, just like other boneheads usually proves ineffective and a waste of time. You need to request the attention from people of influence. For instance Carolyn Bennett who has been briefed already about him and the University of Toronto. With tomorrow being Women's day, it could not be a more appropriate time to do so.

 

[halcyon]

Just came across this amusing quote from Byron Hyde's 1992 textbook on ME:

Yet individuals such as historian Edward Shorter write books that equate M.E./CFS with hysteria, suggesting
that this disease process is no more than a psychosomatic illness, a somatization, the modern equivalent of
the self-flagellating hysterics of the middle ages. How can such a dichotomy exist amongst supposedly
intelligent individuals?

Dr. Shorter answered the question very well when I interviewed him on a Toronto television programme. 'You
have just written a book that discusses M.E./CFS patients. How many M.E./CFS patients have you actually
seen?" I asked. "Why none of course, I am an historian." he replied. Too many reputed "experts" exist who have
never seen an M.E./CFS patient. Many "experts" have seen few M.E./CFS patients and have never attempted
to investigate seriously the few patients that they have seen.