Potassium/Sodium Balance

[ahmo]

thanks for this!!!
do/did you have low cortisol or high? im low. about to go on a cortisol steroid

My cortisol tests (generally saliva) over a few years when I was at my worst never showed much, even tho it was clear that functionally I had lo cortisol. I used chinese licorice liberally for a couple years, which was helpful. When I tried low dose cortef a couple times, I had negative reactions, especially the water retention.

Re Caledonia's comment re leaky gut, my severe downward spiral only stopped when I started the Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) diet. At no time during my 8.5 years of suffering did anyone suggest gluten or casein, nor leaky gut and its seriousness. I discovered the diet serendipitously. I was initially terrified of this diet plan, had been vegetarian over 30 years. Yet 3 days after eliminating gluten and dairy, my out-of-control nervous system calmed. Some people use the SCD diet. I'm now 1.5 years into GAPS, still on a very limited diet, but healing. I do not yet tolerate even small amounts of pumpkin (the first starch to add), and am sulfur and histamine intolerant. But I would not have uncovered those intolerances without the limited diet. I'm supplementing with pyroluria supps as well as much of Yasko's recommendations. Once I was stabilized on the diet I began Freddd's protocol, and am soooo much better now. cheers, ahmo

 

[L'engle]

GenDylan: I would probably wait until you get the platelet test to get a tattoo. That way you can get a sense of how much bleeding danger there may be. I get discoloured feet from blood pooling as well as part of OI/POTS symptoms.

 

[NilaJones]

In re: the original question, I think there is definitely something about methylation and sodium ,at least for me.

I have been craving salt since my last brush with B!2, about 3-4 weeks ago. Putting lots extra on my food. I thought it was because we have had hot weather and I was drinking a TON of water.

But then on Tuesday, when I tried B12 again, after the bad reaction wore off I really wanted salt. I just put it directly in my hand and licked it up -- about 3/4 of a teaspoon before I forced myself to stop. And I still wanted more the next day.

 

[sregan]

In re: the original question, I think there is definitely something about methylation and sodium ,at least for me.

I have been craving salt since my last brush with B!2, about 3-4 weeks ago. Putting lots extra on my food. I thought it was because we have had hot weather and I was drinking a TON of water.

But then on Tuesday, when I tried B12 again, after the bad reaction wore off I really wanted salt. I just put it directly in my hand and licked it up -- about 3/4 of a teaspoon before I forced myself to stop. And I still wanted more the next day.

Sorry if I'm butting in but it sounds like you had a sustained negative issue following using B12? I'm dealing with what I suspect is adrenal fatigue even after stopping all B12 and folate. Been very hard to get out of bed in the morning and heightened anxiety. Once I'm up I'm usually fine but it's probably the worst of all my symptoms.

In the past I've had success with a small dose of Paba (100-150mg from a Now 500mg cap) and Pantethine (Jarrow 450mg) in the past. PABA helps extend the cortisol you have.

 

[NilaJones]

I appreciate your 'butting in'!

My bad reaction was mainly the first two hours after taking a tiny dose of B!2. It felt like being on a recreational drug in the 'entheogen' group. But it was not fun(!), because I didn't know what was happening or why. I thought about going to the ER, but when it didn't get any worse I decided to stay home and wait it out.

This happens to me every time I try B12, although I think this last time may have been the worst.

Afterwards I am tired for a few days, and I usually have some kind of emo meltdown (crying for hours, etc.) withina couple of days, although so far that hasn't happened this time. Yay.

I don't know if any of this has to do with adrenals?

 

[L'engle]

NilaJones. My reacrion to b12 is the opposite. Without it my adrenals crave tons of salt. As soon as I take methyl b12 I start needing opotassium and actually can't tolerate much salt without making the potassium loss worse. Sorry it had such a bad effect on you.

sregan. Thanks for your comment. I've been wondering about pantethine but wanted to hear from more people with ME/CFS before investing in it. Does it work only in conjuction with paba?

 

[sregan]

sregan. Thanks for your comment. I've been wondering about pantethine but wanted to hear from more people with ME/CFS before investing in it. Does it work only in conjuction with paba?[/quote]

I took it yesterday and felt wonderful afterwards for a few hours. It is supposed to help clear acetaldehyde, is very important for creating CoA and boosting the TCA cycle.

A link from Dr. Lam (Adrenal Fatigue guy)
http://www.drlam.com/opinion/pantothenic_acid_and_pantethine.asp

 

[GenDylan]

My cortisol tests (generally saliva) over a few years when I was at my worst never showed much, even tho it was clear that functionally I had lo cortisol. I used chinese licorice liberally for a couple years, which was helpful. When I tried low dose cortef a couple times, I had negative reactions, especially the water retention.

Re Caledonia's comment re leaky gut, my severe downward spiral only stopped when I started the Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) diet. At no time during my 8.5 years of suffering did anyone suggest gluten or casein, nor leaky gut and its seriousness. I discovered the diet serendipitously. I was initially terrified of this diet plan, had been vegetarian over 30 years. Yet 3 days after eliminating gluten and dairy, my out-of-control nervous system calmed. Some people use the SCD diet. I'm now 1.5 years into GAPS, still on a very limited diet, but healing. I do not yet tolerate even small amounts of pumpkin (the first starch to add), and am sulfur and histamine intolerant. But I would not have uncovered those intolerances without the limited diet. I'm supplementing with pyroluria supps as well as much of Yasko's recommendations. Once I was stabilized on the diet I began Freddd's protocol, and am soooo much better now. cheers, ahmo

sorry that you have to live so restricted,,,it realllly sucks.considering that, what does your diet consist of?

 

[NilaJones]

NilaJones. My reacrion to b12 is the opposite. Without it my adrenals crave tons of salt. As soon as I take methyl b12 I start needing opotassium and actually can't tolerate much salt without making the potassium loss worse. Sorry it had such a bad effect on you.

That's so interesting. The first few times I took it, I needed a lot of potassium. This last time, I pre-loaded with potassium, and then I got the salt craving.

 

[Little Bluestem]

That's so interesting. The first few times I took it, I needed a lot of potassium. This last time, I pre-loaded with potassium, and then I got the salt craving.

I wonder if you didn't overdo the potassium loading. Your body wants the potassium and sodium to be in a specific ratio.

 

[mtayl2]

If you're getting a high need for potassium upon starting methylation, this is supposed to be caused by leaky gut. You should stop and treat for that first. "Pushing through" won't fix leaky gut.

Hi @caledonia,

This is way long ago, I know, but can you recall where you saw or heard this about potassium loss and leaky gut? Is the idea that potassium is lost due to poor absorbtion or is there some other mechanism at play.?

I would have thought that one needs sufficient methylation for proper cell formation to repair leaky gut. Maybe not, and that explains why I need sooo much supplemental potassium (3000-6000 many days).

Cheers
Michael

 

[caledonia]

Hi @caledonia,

This is way long ago, I know, but can you recall where you saw or heard this about potassium loss and leaky gut? Is the idea that potassium is lost due to poor absorbtion or is there some other mechanism at play.?

I would have thought that one needs sufficient methylation for proper cell formation to repair leaky gut. Maybe not, and that explains why I need sooo much supplemental potassium (3000-6000 many days).

Cheers
Michael

Wow - I don't even remember posting this, or where I heard this information. But I'm thinking maybe in one of the MTHFRsupport podcasts?

My leaky gut is fixed and I do about 3700mg potass per day.

If you have adrenal fatigue (which I do) it will cause electrolytes such as magnessium, potassium, and sodium to be depleted.

You can do a lot to repair the gut with the 4R Gut Rebuilding Program, but may also need methylation to get complete healing. At least this is how it worked for me.

I don't think you can do methylation supps alone and hope that it will repair the gut - you have to take supps that kill off the gut bugs directly.

 

[mtayl2]

@caledonia,

Thanks for responding. My adrenal/hpa axis appears impaired...24 hour cortisol is a flat line. I had been hoping that that was a result of methylation issues (via disfunction high up in the axis), but it's hard to say at this point.

One other question, I know you go low and slow. Do you find that when doing so you have the symptoms that freddd calls paradoxic folate deficiency? I keep getting them when on lower doses of the b12/folate, then when raising folate, I end up with major electrolyte issues and depression. Can't really win. Chasing the folate deficiency gets me in trouble with low mood, major potassium wasting (4-7k per day in supps when I raise folate above 2,000mcg) and crashes. But not chasing it, and staying low dose leads to a different type of symptom cluster. I feel best on first few days of folate/b12 and then things start going south. I take all the cofactors etc. I keep at it because folate and b12 really improve things for a few days...which both rich and fredd said would not happen if I wasn't deficient. Perhaps I should stay low on doses and just live with the low folate symptoms (IBS, peeling around nails, fluish malaise and general inflammation etc) and hope they fade over time? What has been your pattern?

I much admire your disciplined, patient and organized approach to this all. I am a bit too impetuous and lack the ability to allow myself to feel bad for more than a day or two before I start changing things. Hearing what has been sufccessful for others can help me over my own impulsiveness. Thanks in advance...

Michael

 

[mtayl2]

Oh...forgot to ask. That 3,700mg of potassium. Is that purely supplemental or does it include food.

Thanks again..

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia,

Thanks for responding. My adrenal/hpa axis appears impaired...24 hour cortisol is a flat line. I had been hoping that that was a result of methylation issues (via disfunction high up in the axis), but it's hard to say at this point.

My adrenals were also flat-lined for many years. Now they're about 50% of normal. That's still adrenal fatigue, but much improved. I haven't been able to tolerate any of the traditional treatments for adrenals. I've been replacing electrolytes to help keep even and doing methylation. After I got my most recent results back, I've started on Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder. I tolerate that, and feel that things are improving even more.

One other question, I know you go low and slow. Do you find that when doing so you have the symptoms that freddd calls paradoxic folate deficiency? I keep getting them when on lower doses of the b12/folate, then when raising folate, I end up with major electrolyte issues and depression. Can't really win. Chasing the folate deficiency gets me in trouble with low mood, major potassium wasting (4-7k per day in supps when I raise folate above 2,000mcg) and crashes. But not chasing it, and staying low dose leads to a different type of symptom cluster. I feel best on first few days of folate/b12 and then things start going south. I take all the cofactors etc. I keep at it because folate and b12 really improve things for a few days...which both rich and fredd said would not happen if I wasn't deficient. Perhaps I should stay low on doses and just live with the low folate symptoms (IBS, peeling around nails, fluish malaise and general inflammation etc) and hope they fade over time? What has been your pattern?

I actually have a similar pattern. I'm keeping my doses below what causes fluish malaise after a few days. I have come to believe that this is due to the release of mercury, which then gets redistributed and causes symptoms.

When I've tried metal chelation, I get very similar symptoms.

I'm preparing to start on Cutler's mercury chelation protocol which should circumvent redistribution issues. I've done the hair metals and minerals test he recommends, and by his counting rules I still have some mercury.

I believe the mercury is also implicated in the adrenal fatigue.

Note that mercury affects MTHFR, MTR/MTRR and CBS even if you don't have SNPs in those areas.

 

[caledonia]

Oh...forgot to ask. That 3,700mg of potassium. Is that purely supplemental or does it include food.

Thanks again..

3700mg is all from potassium gluconate. My doc had me try getting potassium from food and it didn't work.