PLEASE HELP - Do Probiotics Methylate Mercury and other heavy metals?

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,568
Likes
4,047
Location
N. California
I tried the charcoal yesterday evening, after a visit to the dentist, which always makes me feel very toxic.

I took 2 capsules right after the visit and another 4 before bed... But I can't say that it helped. I still have a headache and feel rather wired this morning.

Could I have taken more...? And how much? And what happens if you get TOO much? Just wondering about others experiences...
 

leela

Slow But Hopeful
Messages
3,260
Likes
7,290
Location
Couchland, USA
DB--
Depending on what dental issues you were treating, I read somewhere that some have success making a little poultice/paste of charcoal+water,
and putting it in some gauze right on the affected tooth or gum. Many find pain relief and abcess curage from this, but I could imagine that if
you had a filling with icky material it might help draw the VOCs out directly? I've never tried this, and that last part is theory, but thought I'd pass it along.
You never know.
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,568
Likes
4,047
Location
N. California
Thanks Leela--

I didn't even have a tooth treated yesterday. Just being in the dentist's office (with the accumulated odors of people's assorted toxic fragrances) is what made me feel ill. So the problem is mostly systemic. Can't wait to see how much worse I will feel next week when I get my cavities filled... :(

BTW does anyone here know any safe filling materials? I have to use one of the plastics, because the porcelain kind won't work on the side of a tooth. I did a test with Clifford, but I hear they aren't always reliable.
 

leela

Slow But Hopeful
Messages
3,260
Likes
7,290
Location
Couchland, USA
I dunno about filling materials, but I can recommend that any time you're in an environment like that, get out your protease and take it every 15-30 minutes as possible. Maybe the same with charcoal...use one or the other on the spot. Then when you get home, break out the juicer and a whole wad of greens and cilantro, or your green powder (I like Billy's Infinity Greens.)
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,568
Likes
4,047
Location
N. California
Thanks Leela--that's really helpful. I will make a note of it.

Would it help to also keep taking the charcoal now?


PS Sorry Dan, if I've sort temporarily hijacked this thread... :ashamed:
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Likes
595
Location
United States
Hi, Dan.

I'm sorry to hear that you've been having a difficult time since starting the methylation treatment combined with probiotics. I've heard from another person who had problems with anxiety and insomnia on this combination. In his case, we eventually realized that the probiotic bacteria were capable of synthesizing folate, and we came to suspect that this was effectively raising his dosage of chemically reduced folate, which is one of the key ingredients in the methylation treatment. This would have the effect of lifting the partial block in the methylation cycle more rapidly, which in turn would bring on the renewed function of the detox system more rapidly. Perhaps this would account for the more rapid mobilization of heavy metals that your physician found. I'm glad to hear that you have backed off on the treatments. It may take some time for the folate levels to drop, so that the detox will slow down. After that happens, you might consider doing the probiotic treatment separate from the methylation treatment. The combination may be too much for your body to tolerate.

Best regards,

Rich
This is an old thread. I hope you're doing better, Danny. I seem to be having the same problem with anxiety, insomnia, and overstimulation. It started 3 months ago when one of my teeth cracked that had a mercury amalgam in it. I really glad I learned about methylation or I never would have made the connection that the methylfolate in my Jarrow B Right B-complex was part of the problem. I very recently learned that some of the other supplements I'm taking also initiate methylation so I'm stopping or at least cutting back on those. So now I should stop probiotics (?). I don't really mind stopping supplements because that just means I save money although it's kind of sad looking at a shelf full of supplements that I wasted spent money on.

I have a few questions regarding the concept of probiotics creating active folate, but these would also apply to taking folate orally as well.

  • I've read that folic acid blocks active folate absorption to a certain extent. This might sound counterintuitive, but would taking more folic acid be a temporary solution to mitigate the effects of folate created by probiotics? I'm not sure how well this would work for me since I am already taking at least 400 mcg of folic acid a day and I'm still having problems. And I was taking even more folic acid at the time I reacted to the small amount in my B right supplement. I'm sorry, but I haven't had the time to read through Fred's thread about folic acid (and also folinic acid for some people) blocking methylfolate absorption so I don't know if it applies to everyone.
  • Also, is the folate naturally occuring in foods (not added folic acid) converted to active folate? I've been noticing some of the foods I eat have small amounts, but every little bit adds up.
  • I've also read that Niacin can slow down methylation in some shape or form. Would taking more Niacin reduce the effects I'm experiencing? I'm planning on taking Niacinimide since that's recommended for anxiety.
  • If cutting out probiotics and supplements used for methylation (are those called methyl donors or is that something else?) and also taking more Folic Acid and/or Niacin don't decrease my symptoms should I assume that it's the metals causing the effects?

I seem to remember a period about 4-6 weeks ago where I seemed to be improving. I wasn't taking any active B12 and definitely no active folates. I was just taking regular old B-complexes along with a few methyl donors such as Carnitine L-Fumarate and Coenzyme Q10. I'm taking too many supplements to write everything down unfortunately. I was so much more relaxed. I just laid in bed most of the day listening to music. I will say this though. Even though my anxiety and overstimulation are at an uncomfortable, I'm much more focused now almost like the way I was when I was taking Ritalin or Adderall so I don't necessarily want to be "stoned" all the time. I like being able to get stuff done. I just started Zyprexa to help me sleep (if there were better options I wouldn't, but I won't go into the details). I also ordered a free sample (10 tablets) of Lithium Orotate from iHerb so I'm hoping that can keep me on a more steady pace, but I don't want to start taking it until I've eliminated the supplements I suspect are causing problems.

Thanks to anyone who's reading all of this. I ended up typing a lot more than I planned.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
17,497
Likes
27,760
Location
Albuquerque
Hi Lotus,

I found this quote from Rich about whether to add 5 methylTHF while taking VSL-3, Nexavir, and hydroxy B12. This is just supportive of the earlier quote but still interesting. In my case I had worked with the Simplified Protocol for a couple of years--a few years back. My question to Rich was whether to add something like FoloPro. Here is his answer:

Dear Sushi,

My advice is to hold off on adding the 5-methylTHF....I think you will already be getting it. It is made by some of the probiotic bacteria. I'm familiar with one case in which the person added probiotics to the simplified protocol and experienced a big reaction. Eventually, he figured out that the probiotics were effectively increasing his methylfolate dose.

Best regards,

Rich
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Likes
595
Location
United States
Hi Lotus,

I found this quote from Rich about whether to add 5 methylTHF while taking VSL-3, Nexavir, and hydroxy B12. This is just supportive of the earlier quote but still interesting. In my case I had worked with the Simplified Protocol for a couple of years--a few years back. My question to Rich was whether to add something like FoloPro. Here is his answer:
I actually haven't taken any methylfolate since I stopped B right a few months ago. I was taking folinic acid for the past 5 days or so and I stopped that yesterday. Part of the problem is that with some things related to methylation it takes a few days for me to feel the side effects so I'm going off a lot of things for at least a few days because someone told me that it also takes a few days before the side effects wear off. I'm not sure if I'll stop B12 completely. I guess I'll just see how I feel day to day. I'll also cut back on CoQ10 and Carnitine too until things settle down. I'm kind of scared of stopping too many things though. The probiotics might also be a problem since I've been using a different brand for the past few months which seems to be more potent.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
17,497
Likes
27,760
Location
Albuquerque
I actually haven't taken any methylfolate since I stopped B right a few months ago. I was taking folinic acid for the past 5 days or so and I stopped that yesterday. Part of the problem is that with some things related to methylation it takes a few days for me to feel the side effects so I'm going off a lot of things for at least a few days because someone told me that it also takes a few days before the side effects wear off. I'm not sure if I'll stop B12 completely. I guess I'll just see how I feel day to day. I'll also cut back on CoQ10 and Carnitine too until things settle down. I'm kind of scared of stopping too many things though. The probiotics might also be a problem since I've been using a different brand for the past few months which seems to be more potent.
For me it would take longer than a few days for side-effects to wear down--more like a few weeks.

Best wishes,
Sushi
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,356
Likes
2,360
Location
Seattle
Sparrowhawk -- I'm currently reconsidering that mercury is a serious issue in my case. I just had my first doc appt in 2 years today...she wants to bring up levels of folinic and other things first, try to calm my adrenals with Seriphos, and possibly try some very low dose thyroid (all in the attempt to make me a little stronger) before I go to the dentist to have him check out what looks like some small chunks of amalgam (mercury) fillings that didn't get completely removed 23 years ago. Have to have those out before I would do any more chelation...plus would have to wait 3 months after that removal before starting ALA chelation.

I personally wouldn't recommend pectin -- except perhaps for the gut -- but it's my understanding that it's not really a chelator...
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Likes
335
Location
West Coast USA
dannybex thanks for the response and very best to you as you try these new approaches.

I wasn't thinking pectin as a chelator but as a binder. I think the zinc and mag I'm taking is driving metals out, and I want to be sure they're not just flowing around in a circle and going back into my tissues -- I want them out!

Thanks again.
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Likes
335
Location
West Coast USA
dannybex thanks for the response and very best to you as you try these new approaches.

I wasn't thinking pectin as a chelator but as a binder. I think the zinc and mag I'm taking is driving metals out, and I want to be sure they're not just flowing around in a circle and going back into my tissues -- I want them out!

Thanks again.
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Likes
335
Location
West Coast USA
Yes, thanks, I'm familiar with Andy and his approach. It scares me. Every time I've tried ALA I've felt like unmitigated hell, and that was before I was really this sick, I'm not sure my body can take that protocol. Like I may have said earlier, I have hair test evidence I'm releasing mercury, what I need to do is figure out how to bind and expel it...thx.
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Likes
335
Location
West Coast USA
Yes, thanks, I'm familiar with Andy and his approach. It scares me. Every time I've tried ALA I've felt like unmitigated hell, and that was before I was really this sick, I'm not sure my body can take that protocol. Like I may have said earlier, I have hair test evidence I'm releasing mercury, what I need to do is figure out how to bind and expel it...thx.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,356
Likes
2,360
Location
Seattle
Have you had all your fillings removed? Also, I'm curious what dose and how frequently did you take it? Some people need to start with reeaaaally low doses. And others start with DMSA (?) before moving on to ALA if they have a high body burden...
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,568
Likes
4,047
Location
N. California
ALA made me feel HORRIBLE. I would not consider taking it again. It mobilized the toxins much too fast and did nothing to help neutralize and clear them.
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Likes
335
Location
West Coast USA
Have you had all your fillings removed? Also, I'm curious what dose and how frequently did you take it? Some people need to start with reeaaaally low doses. And others start with DMSA (?) before moving on to ALA if they have a high body burden...
I did have my fillings removed, about seven years ago, but I'd had them since I was 13. And I had a lot of them. And it was done by a dentist-in-a-box so I'm sure in retrospect there wasn't adequate precautions taken that an environmental dentist might have taken. Live and learn.

I don't recall the dosage of ALA I took, apologies. I get that start slow/small thing. I'm reading some of the threads now over in the Gastro area of the site and trying to see if there may be other issues than just metals.