People cured by laxatives & link with FMT

[Mad Hatter]

I experience considerable improvement in digestion following my severe gastroperesis acute attacks. Unable to eat any food for several days, I think something gets starved out. My IBS is much improved for a bout a week to ten days. Then it gradually reverts.

Could you please describe what your gastroperesis acute attacks are like?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

what your gastroperesis acute attacks are like

They come on rapidly, stomach seems to shut down, I get horribly nauseated, vomit, fever, it's like I have a horrible stomach flu and I did go to the ER once. They don't even try to diagnosis these things. called it gastroenteritis.

This has happened to me about 12 times. Twice within two months in 2018 is when I went from mild to MUCH WORSE ME/cfs.

I also think the vomiting may cause further weakening of the neck ligaments and laxity worsens.

I "think" it's likely either a viral reactivation or acute vagus attack or something.

Intestines get shut off when the stomach stops emptying and that lasts about 48 hours. Then I try to eat tiny amounts, etc.

Its not food poisoning, and I did not leave my apartment so its not a actual Flu.

 

[Tiffyshea]

You may be interested to know that there is a yoga technique called shankhaprakshalana (salt water flush), which involves drinking many litres of salty water, while at the same time performing specific yoga twisting asanas which rapidly move this water from your stomach through the intestines. You will need to use the toilet multiple times during shankhaprakshalana.

This technique might be an alternative to a bowel flush with laxatives.

Is anyone planning to try this? I'm super interested to hear about the results... I think I may be too crashed to try it now, but if I'm ever dig myself out of this crash hole I'm in I'd like to try it.

I think I might be intested in it because I've found that twisty/massage your organs type Qigong movements make me feel just a tiny bit better for a few hours after doing them.

 

[Mad Hatter]

They come on rapidly, stomach seems to shut down, I get horribly nauseated, vomit, fever, it's like I have a horrible stomach flu and I did go to the ER once. They don't even try to diagnosis these things. called it gastroenteritis.

This has happened to me about 12 times. Twice within two months in 2018 is when I went from mild to MUCH WORSE ME/cfs.

I also think the vomiting may cause further weakening of the neck ligaments and laxity worsens.

I "think" it's likely either a viral reactivation or acute vagus attack or something.

Intestines get shut off when the stomach stops emptying and that lasts about 48 hours. Then I try to eat tiny amounts, etc.

Its not food poisoning, and I did not leave my apartment so its not a actual Flu.

You said you have fever during these gastroenteritis episodes. It could also cause the remissions. I think it's either that or the diarrhea/ emptying of the digestive track.

 

[datadragon]

All very interesting. Good luck on your experiment. Another note: Approximately 95% of 5-HT in the body is synthesized and secreted by enterochromaffin (EC) cells, the most common type of neuroendocrine cells in the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, through sensing signals from the intestinal lumen and the circulatory system. Enterochromaffin (EC) cells and serotonergic neurons convert tryptophan into 5-HTP through the rate-limiting enzymes, TPH1 and TPH2, respectively, and the newly formed 5-HTP is rapidly degraded into 5-HT by L-AADC. TPH1 enzymes are dependent on active vitamin B6 as I mentioned elsewhere. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8347425/ I wonder what effect laxatives/diarrhea might have on the levels of 5-htp/5-ht as that still seems to be one possible common factor. If you all are playing around just to see what works, perhaps try 5% minoxidil foam since that may lower systemic IL-1a levels I mentioned without a stronger drug that are available if it does, or active B6 Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate ( in small amount from the capsule since rda is around 2mg and most capsules unfortunately have far higher doses in them) as that may help those conversions while research is obviously ongoing. The active form of Vitamin B6 (P5p) prevents IL-1β production by inhibiting NLRP3 inflammasome activation and suggest its potential for preventing inflammatory diseases driven by the NLRP3 inflammasome https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27733681/

micronized palmitoylethanolamide is another I thought might be helpful for a number of reasons but we dont have mechanisms yet for CFS. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34396611/
PPARa activation by using Palmitoylethanolamide (PEA) engages Allopregnanolone biosynthesis and induced marked antidepressive- and antianxiety effects.
The naturally occuring neurosteroid progesterone metabolite allopregnanolone prevents the activation of pro-inflammatory proteins important for gene regulation, as well as the creation of cytokines, which are known to be involved in many different inflammatory conditions. Allopregnanolone also tamps down chemokines and cytokines, such as NFkB, HMGB1, MCP-1 and TNF-a, all of which are part of the immune system and involved in many different inflammatory diseases.
Allopregnanolone substantially blocked, or inhibited, the LPS-induced TLR4 activation in macrophages, which are found in white blood cells and part of the immune system, including in the brain. In macrophages, the TLR4 protein is part of a proinflammatory response that leads to the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322319300812
Female reproductive steroids, estrogen and progesterone and its physiologically active metabolite, allopregnanolone, provide anti-inflammatory functions, reshape competence of immune cells. "Progesterone and allopregnanolone can block the incredible overreaction of the inflammatory system, repressing it and avoiding the over-expression of pro-inflammatory cytokines. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201124122919.htm

 

[Rufous McKinney]

you have fever during these gastroenteritis episodes. It could also cause the remissions

yes, that could also be happening...I killed off something. Seems like the small intestine activity/SIBO calms way way down in my case. I literally have no bowel involvement in the stomach thing, once I empty out once.

 

[Wishful]

Wishful, you said what I was about to try with laxatives couldn't work for severe CFS.

No, what I said was that some people are on the cusp of switching, and it might not take much to switch them out of ME, and some people are solidly locked into the ME state, so more drastic measures are likely needed. I certainly seemed to be solidly locking into that type IV sensitivity. I'd taken several types of antibiotics during those years (tooth infections), and they didn't affect the sensitivity. The food poisoning did work.

I think it's hard for general antibiotics to permanently alter the microbiome, since it reduces the population of good microbes as well as the bad ones, but doesn't completely eliminate all bacterial cells of a given strain, so you probably end up with the same microbiome as before. Flushing out might have reduced the numbers of a bad strain to the point where the good strains could outnumber them and completely wipe them out. Antibiotics wouldn't directly affect the populations of phages, but flushing out would, so that might be part of the answer.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I took the laxatives today and it was a failure. I was nowhere close to full bowel flush, and so I cannot know if flushing helps me or not. I will soon try the yoga method proposed by Hip, which seems much more potent than the laxatives I took today.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Couldn't empty my bowels with the yoga technique Hip mentionned. Maybe I didn't do it for long enough (it is surprisingly exhausting), or maybe the water I drank was not salty enough, or maybe I am too constipated for that, I don't know. So I can't tell what it is like to have empty guts.

The next thing I am trying is an extended water fast, which I just began today.

 

[Wishful]

So I can't tell what it is like to have empty guts.

Any carrion around? Long-forgotten containers hiding in your fridge? My canned coconut milk caught me by surprise, although the yellow tinge should have warned me. Are there any safe forms of food poisoning that provides effective gut flushing?

 

[Mad Hatter]

Any carrion around? Long-forgotten containers hiding in your fridge? My canned coconut milk caught me by surprise, although the yellow tinge should have warned me. Are there any safe forms of food poisoning that provides effective gut flushing?

I can't fathom the thought of drinking rotten milk or something similar.

I am currently water fasting, 8 days in and planning to go as far as my body will allow it. I know that for my next fast, I'll begin by taking rounds of laxatives to make sure I start empty.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I just figured something major.

CFS & POIS might be connected in a lot of cases. There's only one thread about POIS here so you might not know what it is: Post-orgasmic illness syndrome. Basically, people with POIS feel like shit and are very tired for some hours, days or weeks following an orgasm. Sometimes it's even permanent and then you can't differentiate it from CFS!

Here is a non-exhaustive list of common symptoms of POIS:
- Extreme tiredness
- Feeling spaced out
- Not feeling anything
- Severe anxiety
- Runny nose, achy joints
- Dark circles
- Less healthy-looking skin
- Memory issues
- Concentration issues
- Neurological issues
- Low libido, impotence
- etc.

As you can see, it looks like CFS. Except that it eventually goes away for most people when they stop cumming for a few days. But in the most severe cases, these symptoms are permanent and only worsens after ejaculation (most people with POIS are men I believe). I believe that my CFS is extreme POIS, because cumming just makes everything worse.

Now the good news is that contrarily to CFS, people tend to find a cure for POIS. Sometimes they're half cured, mostly cured, and sometimes they're permanently & fully recovered. All the cures involve a connection with the gut.
Here is a non-exhaustive list of common cures:
- Change of diet, eating less grains
- Antibiotics like amoxicillin, niacinamide (B3)
- Fasting
- Enema

Notably, I read one testimony of a guy doing a water-diluted vinegar enema that cured him completely and almost instantly. The guy put 1 part of vinegar for 5 parts of water, which is a steep ratio. On the internet, it's advised to mix only about a fifth of that amount of vinegar. He couldn't hold it for more than a minute in his butthole. He then shat and saved his life.

Any carrion around? Long-forgotten containers hiding in your fridge? My canned coconut milk caught me by surprise, although the yellow tinge should have warned me. Are there any safe forms of food poisoning that provides effective gut flushing?

This is an alternative to clean one's gut. Not laxatives, not rotten food, but pouring liquid up your ass, the old way, because it's a common cure since thousands of years. The other good news is that I'll be your guinea pig on this one, I'll be trying this in the days to come, and I'll keep you informed. May god be with me on this one, because it's not a pleasant foresight!

Have you tried it @Hip, oh thou who hast tried everything?

 

[Mad Hatter]

And by the way, my ten-days water fast didn't help me at all. It only made my skin a bit better, as all fasts do.

 

[hapl808]

This is an alternative to clean one's gut. Not laxatives, not rotten food, but pouring liquid up your ass, the old way, because it's a common cure since thousands of years. The other good news is that I'll be your guinea pig on this one, I'll be trying this in the days to come, and I'll keep you informed. May god be with me on this one, because it's not a pleasant foresight!

Glad you'll be the guinea pig.

I do believe that POIS and CFS are connected. Personally I think POIS is just a trigger for PEM or whatever you want to call it. I've had both for many years, although I never was quite willing to admit it. I always thought I could just ignore it and it would go away.

I've spent a bit of time on POIS boards and my impression is those who are relatively mild can find some interventions, and others don't. Similar to CFS. I've tried the various niacin, fenugreek and garlic, different diets, mastic gum, etc. Nothing has significantly improved - but when I was mild 10+ years ago, some things like garlic and other stuff helped more.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Glad you'll be the guinea pig.

I do believe that POIS and CFS are connected. Personally I think POIS is just a trigger for PEM or whatever you want to call it. I've had both for many years, although I never was quite willing to admit it. I always thought I could just ignore it and it would go away.

I've spent a bit of time on POIS boards and my impression is those who are relatively mild can find some interventions, and others don't. Similar to CFS. I've tried the various niacin, fenugreek and garlic, different diets, mastic gum, etc. Nothing has significantly improved - but when I was mild 10+ years ago, some things like garlic and other stuff helped more.

You never tried enema though! You wanna-be destroyer of hope!

On a more serious note, it is not a dangerous procedure. It is a really common and really old one-size-fits-all cure, so why not test it?

The guy who did it was not a mild case, and got cured completely.

 

[Mad Hatter]

By the way, if garlic and niacin did help you, it probably means you benefitted from their antibiotic properties. So why not go in that direction? You might have an infection that you can't get rid of. And the issue with eating antibiotics is that they get destroyed in your stomach, they don't reach your alleged intestine infections.

Anyway, I wanted to say that's it's a positive thing that antibiotics did help you. It means that your problem is probably an infection! Or does it not? And if it is, you can maybe get rid of it.

 

[Hip]

Have you tried it @Hip

Had not heard of a vinegar enema before.

 

[hapl808]

By the way, if garlic and niacin did help you, it probably means you benefitted from their antibiotic properties. So why not go in that direction? You might have an infection that you can't get rid of. And the issue with eating antibiotics is that they get destroyed in your stomach, they don't reach your alleged intestine infections.

Anyway, I wanted to say that's it's a positive thing that antibiotics did help you. It means that your problem is probably an infection! Or does it not? And if it is, you can maybe get rid of it.

I don't know what it means. My one remission event was after a short course of Zithro, but it only lasted days. Since then I've had the same thought you did, and tried high doses of allicin, artemesinin, doxycycline, azithromycin, tinizadole, oregano oil, caprylic acid, olive leaf, various medical fasts, and on and on.

The most consistently helpful is probably allicin, but in too high a dose it really hurts my stomach, so it's a balance. Doxy and Zithro worked okay for a number of years when I was moderate, but seemed to lose effect when I became more severe.

And I certainly don't mean to discourage, as my symptoms started as GI - plus my own personal view is that we will eventually find 90% of disease starts in or is regulated by the gut. From neurological disorders to mental health to autoimmune.

My weirdest symptom is maybe that if I talk on the phone or work on the computer too much, my PEM crash starts with burning acid reflux 12-24 hours later, followed by migraines and such. Never have been able to figure out or fully stop that acid reflux or crash from cognitive exertion.

 

[Mad Hatter]

My weirdest symptom is maybe that if I talk on the phone or work on the computer too much, my PEM crash starts with burning acid reflux 12-24 hours later, followed by migraines and such. Never have been able to figure out or fully stop that acid reflux or crash from cognitive exertion.

We seem to have similar cases except that I don't experience PEM. I'm always exhausted on the moment, I can't get indebt energy wise. I'll keep you informed. I believe there is hope for your case.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I did two colonics in a row. One with a wee bit of vinegar (0.5%) & the next with 2 drops of oregano oil.

It flushed things out (especially things I'm chronically constipated), but did nothing for my health.

Next thing I'm gonna try is a liver flush (Andreas Moritz protocol). I have huge hope in this, seing the testimonies and also having a lot of symptoms of a congested liver (constipation, floating green stools, fecal breath, poor blood circulation, lower back pain, fatigue, food staying in stomach, white tongue, brain fog, blurry vision, etc.) I'll be trying this out Thursday.

I never had this much hope for a protocol. Everything clicks in my mind. It would all make sense. Delusional? We'll find out in a week!