PEM vs. detoxing

[Rufous McKinney]

detoxing used to be a huge issue for me and it's not any more.

How would you describe the symptoms called detoxing, and do you consider that to differ from "a crash"?

 

[Mary]

How would you describe the symptoms called detoxing, and do you consider that to differ from "a crash"?

Yes, detoxing and crashing (PEM) are entirely different. PEM is a response to exertion - If I exceed my energy envelope (4 hours of light activity), I'm hit with PEM the next day. It's delayed onset for me, about 20 hours. It used to make me feel like I'd been hit by a truck and climbed a mountain, lots of lactic acid and the only way to deal with it is to do nothing until it passes. PEM used to last 2 - 3 days until I started taking BCAAs - now it usually gets over within a day.

Detoxing feels like I've been poisoned - extra tired, digestion is off, I'll get spacey. I used to react to anything that had a "cleansing" property - cayenne, apple cider vinegar, glutamine, inositol, tons of things, and the detox would last as long as I kept taking whatever it was that was causing it. Detoxing was caused by toxins being released from the cells. Chlorella caused detoxing, I couldn't tolerate it.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

extra tired, digestion is off, I'll get spacey. I used to react to anything that had a "cleansing" property

Well, I tend to feel both occurring- PEM. can include the poisoned feeling.

My PEM events- seem to be delaying more. Like the 20 hour thing- I seem to be skipping the next day and having it be lousy 3-4 days after- the overdoing.

At this moment- I overdid thinking yesterday- five hours worth of hard core Science effort related to my career that is now largely over. I did alot of intense thinking while totally ly ing down the whole time. I've been without any desire to tackle- this thing I tackled yesterday, it was a signficant day of feeling- much less cognitively fogged.

Today I am- going into PEM, extra tired, digestion clearly off but I didn't eat anything odd. My daughter is speaking to me and I'm- just Space Zombie. She indicated I wasn't helping her, or responding. I ended up yelling- stop it. This is what happens. She finally- gave me a break.

She tells me things in rapid fire fashion of- those who are young and not ill. I appear to be paying attention. But sometimes- I'm just trying to actualy focus my eyes on- the lack of focus in my brain.

 

[Mary]

@Rufous - this sounds like PEM to me. It's a response to exertion, albeit mental exertion. One night I watched a fascinating video about cancer and pancreatic enzymes. I concentrated very hard for 3 hours straight - it was hard work - and I crashed the next day.

PEM stands for post-exertional malaise (I hate the word malaise here!) Anyways, it occurs in response to exertion, whether physical, mental or even emotional. Too much talking on the phone can do me in. Many people here get brain fog etc with PEM and digestive problems. My PEM is primarily physical, though I don't dare try to tackle mental activity during PEM. It would just make me worse.

Detoxing is different. It is caused by a release of toxins in the body or being exposed to toxins. I once did a far infrared sauna for 20 minutes - it wiped me out for 3 days with detoxing. I did a detox footbath once, which likewise wiped me out for 3 days. Glutamine caused a detox reaction once. Glycine caused a very severe detox reaction. All these reactions were not in response to exertion - they were in response to something I ate or was exposed to. I had a new vinyl bathroom floor put in 4 years ago and again had a detox reaction, obviously reacting to some chemical in the floor. Chlorella is known for helping to chelate heavy metals - well, it caused a very strong detox reaction for me - I couldn't tolerate it.

And glycine is what apparently has taken care of almost all my detoxing. I think it got my detox pathways working properly so I no longer react to so many things at the drop of a hat.

So you're right - PEM can feel like detoxing in some ways and you just have to know your body and know how it reacts to various things. If you've done extra exertion and afterwards feel like shit (however it manifests!), 10 to 1 it's PEM. If you a try a new supplement and start to feel awful, it's possible you're detoxing. There are a lot of other possibilities with that one of course. I think you have to be a detective with this illness!

 

[Mary]

@Rufous McKinney - Whoops, I didn't tag you properly above, so am tagging you here!

 

[Mary]

@Rufous McKinney - several years ago one glass of wine would make me sick for an entire day. 2 glasses would make me sick for 2 to 3 days - this was a form of detoxing. My liver couldn't handle the alcohol. My chiropractor who does muscle testing discovered this. He helped me with a liver detox. I did it for 30 days, it was a bit rough, I felt awful for 30 days, but afterwards my liver was much better, AND I could now tolerate alcohol, which was very nice! I also learned I had to start taking betaine HCL with meals, and I started taking milk thistle as well.

I'd had heavy exposure to chemical solvents at a job I had at age 19, and it appeared that this was at the root of this problem.

But I did continue to have detoxing issues which for the most part seem to have resolved 5 years ago with the glycine. I still take glycine at night, and with no problem.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I think you have to be a detective with this illness!

somehow I'm not a very good detective when it comes to the body and what its doing.

But thank you for your comments on this. I'll need to further digest and ponder them.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I'd had heavy exposure to chemical solvents at a job I had at age 19, and it appeared that this was at the root of this problem.

Do you think all this MTHR genetic stuff is involved in your case? (in terms of a tendency for toxins to build up)?

 

[Mary]

somehow I'm not a very good detective when it comes to the body and what its doing.

I would have been lost without my chiropractor who does muscle testing. When I felt so sick when my liver was toxic, I'd given up going to doctors by then. They were never able to help me. I didn't think my chiropractor could help. It was just another weird awful symptom, so I was very surprised when my chiro said my liver was toxic. This was new to me! I didn't know anything about this. Anyways, I did the liver detox, took what he told me to, it helped so much. And I also learned I needed betaine HCL with pepsin - it made a world of difference in my digestion, and might have been a factor in my liver performing so poorly. I'd been having gallbladder symptoms too - and the liver detox together with the betaine HCL with pepsin, and a Standard Process product called AF Betafood made all the difference. This was 16 years ago and my liver and gallbladder and my digestion in general are all in good shape now.

I've learned how to do my own muscle testing now, which helps me figure out what is going on at any given time. Otherwise it would be nothing but a guessing game. Doing MT is second nature to me now - I can't imagine trying to navigate this illness without it. But I don't recommend anyone start off trying to do it on their own and I still go see my chiropractor (a different one now, I moved) periodically to double check what I'm doing.

MT has helped me so much in so many different ways - though it hasn't found the answer to ME/CFS. But 13 years ago I had 1 or 2 "good" days a month - where I wasn't sick or crashed or herxing or detoxing or otherwise feeling awful for unknown (at that time) reasons. And now I often have 2 or 3 good days a week, and feeling better on those good days than I did on my "good" days 13 years ago. I didn't "believe" in muscle testing when I first saw the chiro who did it. But I had been sick at that time for about 7 years (before I actually started crashing) with no help from doctors, so I had nothing to lose but $50 - so I tried it and it's the best thing I've ever done.

Do you think all this MTHR genetic stuff is involved in your case? (in terms of a tendency for toxins to build up)?

It's possible. But the toxins are no longer building up like they used to. I had the 23 and me testing done several years ago and I did have one of the MTHR SNPs, I can't remember exactly but it just didn't help me much knowing that, and it could get so complex. Whereas with muscle testing, I would have a new symptom, go to the chiropractor, he was very often able to sort it out, maybe recommend a supplement as well as the dose and I just dealt with things as they arose. And I think I'm on a pretty good supplement regimen right now. It's taken a lot of work and trial and error and reading and experimenting and MT to get here, but the MT is what allowed me to do all the experimenting.

 

[Tiffyshea]

PEM used to last 2 - 3 days until I started taking BCAAs - now it usually gets over within a day.

What are BCAAs?

 

[Mary]

What are BCAAs?

Branched chain amino acids - here's a thread I did about them helping with PEM: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/bcaas-reducing-pem.34719/

 

[xebex]

There is also the possibility that activity causes poorly functioning muscles to create a build up of toxins that the body can’t detox fast enough from. I do believe that the detox issues don’t have to be from an extrinsic source.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

There is also the possibility that activity causes poorly functioning muscles to create a build up of toxins that the body can’t detox fast enough from.

Also I am convinced the lymphatic system is also involved- mine is very stagnent and anythign that moves lymph typically causes a PEM type crash for me, with the poisoned feeling.

 

[xebex]

Yes I think it’s the lymph system that’s not draining properly. It’s particularly bad in my thoracic back area. I wonder how much the lymph and blood vessel systems are related ie does vasoconstriction cause some kind of lymph constriction?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

how much the lymph and blood vessel systems are related ie does vasoconstriction cause some kind of lymph constriction?

well, movement of muscles I think is whats stimulates lymph movement- but how- thats actually a good question.

I noticed my swollen lymph nodes drop down- if I can walk more. Like I had to walk more and they noticeably dropped.

The swollen nodes also go down after acupunture treatments- but then i always get PEM after those treatments. I don't get them very often as I'm just to senstivie.

I got chinese herbs to stimulate the lymph. I think they worked so well, I had to slow down consuming them. Then I shifted my formula to work on some the dry lung issue (COVID prevention). So I need to return to my lymph cleanse agenda.

Sigh.

 

[xebex]

Yes movement does help lymph for sure but then you got the PEM. Finding the balance between movement for maintenance and relief and PEM is very hard!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Yes movement does help lymph for sure but then you got the PEM. Finding the balance between movement for maintenance and relief and PEM is very hard!

When I was on an extended trip, but then quite ill with the ME so mostly I was just resting- even that just resting resulted in severe PEM every day- because I'm out of the country, I have to walk over here and over there to get food, I am up with my grandaughter baby, foreign languages, the stress that your sick and everybody wants you to come with on the next adventure.

The horrific disappointment when you can't go on the next outing.

I was just getting more and more really intense symptoms that were quite awful, including more tachycardia, and POTS and things. Around 5 pm every day, I"d go lie down and consider checking myself out permanently somehow.

All that is now doing alot better with MONTHS of rest.

Months.

 

[xebex]

Glad you got some improvement. I’m doing a lot better than 3 years ago. But even that’s still not enough to get me beyond the confines of my home at least I have a nice garden.

 

[Carnation4000]

I know I'm coming in a little late but wanted to add a couple of things.

I was having a lot of problems with lymphatic congestion a few months ago but I'm doing better now. A couple of things helped me more than anything else:

1 - doing the Shaking Tree Quigong exercise:

. You can do it as easy or as intense as works for you. Some days I was barely moving but it still helped.

2- Using Diosmin. Diosmin is a bioflavonoid found in the pulp of citrus fruits. It is marketed for vein issues. It made a big difference for me. I'm not taking it now but I would take it again if I needed it.

I also want to support what @Mary said about muscle testing. I have been using MT since 2015, and, like Mary, I would be lost without it! One thing I've taken to doing is scanning lists of body organs, enzymes, or amino acids to find the root of some of my problems. Mary and I talked before about how folks kinda roll their eyes when they hear you talk about muscle testing but it's truly a blessing.

 

[sometexan84]

For me, PEM and detoxing feel similar. I only know the difference because I rarely do anything to cause PEM now. When I do, I expect it, and of course it happens.