PEM, magnesium and oxidative stress..

[aquariusgirl]

Anne
not sure where I gleaned this..but i think arsenic is one of the first metals to get excreted once you start working on this. that was my experience.
Not to quote amy yasko ad nauseam...but she says there is an order in which metals get excreted.
Mercury is the toughest to pull out I believe. Boyd Haley says it is very tightly bound in the body.
Thanks for yr response Vegas. Glad you are making headway.
FYI: I know kids who do IV EDTA w/out too many problems...so far as we can tell!

 

[aquariusgirl]

Rich
have you considered adding chelators and or binders to your simplified protocol?
For one, it would make it easier on people, take the edge off detox if the stuff dumped into the blood stream is mopped up instead of allowed to circulate and get reabsorbed.
For two, I assume the toxins that are mobilised will drag down glutathione even further?
I know chelators are a controversial area you may not want to get into....but pectin, charcoal. These things are kind of a no brainer.
I know some ppl have success with cholestyramine, but I've had some terrible experiences with it ... I think because it binds b12 and fats.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Denise,
Your story sounds very familiar! I think the suggestion to continue chelating is a good one
If any methylation experts have any reservations I hope they'll speak up!

My feeling is that so long as nothing in either of your protocols works against the other and so long as you're taking things fairly slowly and you have all the support stuff covered then there's probably no reason the two protocols can't work in together.
(I'm kind of hoping 1 + 1 will equal 3 here...)

BTW I've found molybdenum VERY helpful for sulfation, and I think taurine and glycine help fat absorption in my case.

I was getting pretty uncomfortable symptoms from a methylation protocol alone. I was clearly detoxifying and in the beginning it was relatively easy to manage, but after a couple of months it felt like the type of stuff my body was dealing with had changed...possibly as a response to an increase in glutathione? It certainly does feel as if things shift out in order!

 

[Rockt]

I think having a practitioner would be wise, but it is manageable without one. I wouldn't touch i/v chelation under any circumstances. If you have very significant heavy metal toxicity, intravenous chelation will pull out more metal than your body can excrete in the time that the chelator is bound to the the metal atoms. Taking a megadose of a chelator doesn't just magically clear out the body, although I suspect it is fine for those who have minimal toxicity.

Thanks Vegas.

I ask because a few years ago I tested high for lead. The city determined that there was a lead pipe in the street in front of my house. They said that my water fell within provincial guidelines for safe lead intake(?!?), but they replaced the pipe. Anyway, the naturopath who tested me and who works in a complementary helath office with an MD and where they do a lot of IV chelation, did 3 iv chelations on me, (I did not expereince symptoms of detox, btw), and re-tested - lead was then undetectable and he deemed that problem solved. Now I'm wondering if it wasn't that simple. I've heard that metals/toxins aren't easily pulled from the brain because of the blood/brain barrier and since my worst symptoms are cognitive/brain fog, I think it's worth investigating further.

Did you get started on your own or with the help of some kind of practitioner?

 

[DANEL]

Denise,
Your story sounds very familiar! I think the suggestion to continue chelating is a good one
If any methylation experts have any reservations I hope they'll speak up!

My feeling is that so long as nothing in either of your protocols works against the other and so long as you're taking things fairly slowly and you have all the support stuff covered then there's probably no reason the two protocols can't work in together.
(I'm kind of hoping 1 + 1 will equal 3 here...)

BTW I've found molybdenum VERY helpful for sulfation, and I think taurine and glycine help fat absorption in my case.

I was getting pretty uncomfortable symptoms from a methylation protocol alone. I was clearly detoxifying and in the beginning it was relatively easy to manage, but after a couple of months it felt like the type of stuff my body was dealing with had changed...possibly as a response to an increase in glutathione? It certainly does feel as if things shift out in order!

**thanks anne,
what sort of symptoms were you experiencing? i always have headache and nausea, ALWAYS i think due to the mercury, bacteria and virus in my gut and body.

i am worried a bit b/c within minutes of taking the diben b12 (especially) and the b12 infusion 1mg, i get really bad nausea, not sure if it is the detox or the reaction to the ingredients of fuctose, mannitol, sorbitol, xylitol, the flavors of rapsberry and cherry i think are making me sick. i have horrible food intol, just react to everything.

ARE THERE ANY B12M AND B12 DIBEN I CAN TAKE/ FIND WITHOUT SWEETNERS, FLAVORINGS? PLEASE IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME WITH THIS I WOULD BE SO GRATEFUL
MAYBE THE B12 RICH SUGGEST WITH THE FOLATE, KINDA COMBINE THE PROTOCOLS SO I CAN ELIMINATE THE SUGAR

this also happened to me when i tried to take staph/strep pellets from Hanna's it also had lactose and fuctose, immed stomach nausea

thanks
denise

 

[Vegas]

Thanks Vegas.

I ask because a few years ago I tested high for lead. The city determined that there was a lead pipe in the street in front of my house. They said that my water fell within provincial guidelines for safe lead intake(?!?), but they replaced the pipe. Anyway, the naturopath who tested me and who works in a complementary helath office with an MD and where they do a lot of IV chelation, did 3 iv chelations on me, (I did not expereince symptoms of detox, btw), and re-tested - lead was then undetectable and he deemed that problem solved. Now I'm wondering if it wasn't that simple. I've heard that metals/toxins aren't easily pulled from the brain because of the blood/brain barrier and since my worst symptoms are cognitive/brain fog, I think it's worth investigating further.



Did you get started on your own or with the help of some kind of practitioner?

Just did it on my own.

I do think your HM status warrants further investigation. Sounds like your naturopath/MD combo really wasn't as knowledgeable about HM's as they need to be. I suspect they made some assumptions, over-relied on blood tests, didn't consider other metals, etc. Obviously they didn't address the BBB issues you referenced. Certainly there is a possibility that you had a very limited body burden of Pb, but what about Hg exposures, it is a heck of a lot more toxic.

HM in the brain may contribute to your brain fog, but a lot of things can contribute to brain fog. Intestinal permeability, low cortisol/thyroid, hypoglycemia. Redistributing metals from body tissues into the bloodstream also causes marked brain fog, but this is temporary. Yeast, bacterial-dieoff, certainly also causes these symptoms as well. I have had brain fog for about 11-12 years, but it is better today than it has been since around the time it started. Healing the leaky gut has had the most significant lasting impact on this. If you have 24/7 brain fog you very well may have intestinal permeability, which is in all likelihood secondary to hm toxicity.

 

[Rockt]

Thanks again Vegas.

I definitely had gut permeability - we could see proteins in my blood, (yeast, too), when I had live blood analysis done - but I've been on the low carb, higher fat/protein diet for over a year, so I'm hoping it's better. Certainly my digestion is way better - really, it's pretty much normal now. Brain fog/cognitive issues are still horrible, though.

How does one heal intestinal permeability?

 

[Vegas]

Thanks again Vegas.

I definitely had gut permeability - we could see proteins in my blood, (yeast, too), when I had live blood analysis done - but I've been on the low carb, higher fat/protein diet for over a year, so I'm hoping it's better. Certainly my digestion is way better - really, it's pretty much normal now. Brain fog/cognitive issues are still horrible, though.

How does one heal intestinal permeability?

I found that I could throw all the probiotics/butyrate/glutamine/enzymes/hcl/antifungals, etc. at it and get some benefits, but I think the most effective things I have done:

1. Chelation...this at least had the most rapid effect, although it may not have the same effect had I not done the other stuff before.

2. Methylation Tx...started killing stuff in my gut like crazy for months after starting Rich's protocol.

3. Diet...You are on the right track, but mine was more radical...no grains whatsoever, no sugar, no dairy. ultra low carb.

 

[DANEL]

I found that I could throw all the probiotics/butyrate/glutamine/enzymes/hcl/antifungals, etc. at it and get some benefits, but I think the most effective things I have done:

1. Chelation...this at least had the most rapid effect, although it may not have the same effect had I not done the other stuff before.

2. Methylation Tx...started killing stuff in my gut like crazy for months after starting Rich's protocol.

3. Diet...You are on the right track, but mine was more radical...no grains whatsoever, no sugar, no dairy. ultra low carb.

how long and what mg are you on now in chelation?
are you on Andy Cutler protocol?

as posted above the sugar and sugar alcohol in the b12's are causing me lots of nausea, and my body to feel really hot, wondering if compounding methy b 12 will help with no fillers or sugar added. can find a compound pharmacy that can do the mb12, but no one can do the dibencozide b12. i may have to put up with the nausea every 4 days or cut in 1/4 every day. but it even happens with those tiny pellets.

the mb12 i have is b12 infusion by enzymatic 1mg. i was wondering about jarrow 1mg and jarrow m b12 5mg has xylotol. knowing it is a sugar, but wonder if i would have a different or better reaction than fuctose, mannitol, sorbiltol. i have spent today looking for other b12 even rich's sugestions, but the liquids have glycerine, wonder why they all have sugar added.
any sugar i eat makes my body so hot, never figured out what that was, maybe bacteria infection from the mold reacting to the sugar. yet this started after the experience with the dentist that cracked my amalgam. always thought it was mercury linked some how.

you are on rich's. i have read it but wondering if the folate is the same as fred's or has folic acid instead.

what else beside diet did you do to treat gut issues. if i could eat more veg that aren't sulfur or sals i would have more choices

thanks so much
denise

 

[Rockt]

I found that I could throw all the probiotics/butyrate/glutamine/enzymes/hcl/antifungals, etc. at it and get some benefits, but I think the most effective things I have done:

1. Chelation...this at least had the most rapid effect, although it may not have the same effect had I not done the other stuff before.

2. Methylation Tx...started killing stuff in my gut like crazy for months after starting Rich's protocol.

3. Diet...You are on the right track, but mine was more radical...no grains whatsoever, no sugar, no dairy. ultra low carb.

Been this strict also, for just over a year. Hoping it helps.

Thanks again Vegas.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Denise,

It must be frustrating not knowing whether it's the ingredients or the "desired" effects causing increased nausea etc.

I had frequent headaches and occasional nausea early on in the methylation protocol but I found activated charcoal helped with those symptoms a lot.
Prior to starting I had regular headaches.

I have heard of methyl B12 being available to take transdermally (Lee Silsby pharmacy in the USA) but I don't know how effective it would be?
Some people have B12 shots.

I'm taking 2000mcg B12 per day. 1000mg hydroxy drops, and 1000mg methyl sublingual - the one you don't tolerate well. The hydroxy drops are from Holistic Health and they contain a sugar called trehalose so that might not suit you either. Holistic health might have other formulations though?

Sorry I can't help with the adenoB12. I don't think this is widely available. I had a strong reaction to it too....sweating for hours, not nausea though.

Anne.

PS I'm on Rich's (maybe not most current?) protocol and his recommended folates don't include folic acid. The folates I use are Folapro and Actifolate. There's a small amount of folinic acid there which I find beneficial.

 

[DANEL]

Denise,

It must be frustrating not knowing whether it's the ingredients or the "desired" effects causing increased nausea etc.

I had frequent headaches and occasional nausea early on in the methylation protocol but I found activated charcoal helped with those symptoms a lot.
Prior to starting I had regular headaches.

I have heard of methyl B12 being available to take transdermally (Lee Silsby pharmacy in the USA) but I don't know how effective it would be?
Some people have B12 shots.

I'm taking 2000mcg B12 per day. 1000mg hydroxy drops, and 1000mg methyl sublingual - the one you don't tolerate well. The hydroxy drops are from Holistic Health and they contain a sugar called trehalose so that might not suit you either. Holistic health might have other formulations though?

Sorry I can't help with the adenoB12. I don't think this is widely available. I had a strong reaction to it too....sweating for hours, not nausea though.

Anne.

PS I'm on Rich's (maybe not most current?) protocol and his recommended folates don't include folic acid. The folates I use are Folapro and Actifolate. There's a small amount of folinic acid there which I find beneficial.

thank you for replying,

not many people respond on this site, i was really hoping for more support.

i live with headache and nausea, but i have so much going on. it seems to be that the folate and b12 infusion makes my body hot, like a fever, this started after i went to the dentist within days, when i would eat something or take a supplement. it must be the sugar having a reaction with the bacteria or virus causing a fever, i have never been able to get an answer for that.

i was reading about trehalose also and thought it might be better that the sorbitol, mannitol or fuctose. do you know if it is the same type of sugar? i though the trehalose was more a natural plant form.

so you do hydro instead of adeno, i really don't feel so great on it either, that is the one that makes my body hot, but the nausea with that one is bad, either the sugar or flavorings. maybe i should try just that one.

so the one from fred is solgar folate-metafolin. without any folic acid or folinic, right?

i have read both but wondering whats what about them. don't know which would be better for me, with all this mercury. i believe rich said something about his protocol and about mercury in the brain, and his preventing this. don't know which way to go.

how do you find the folinic beneficial

thanks for your help

denise

 

[anne_likes_red]

Hi Denise,

Trehalose might not be a problem for you at all....it's just you mentioned any sugar as a potential problem so I thought I'd better point that out in the ingredient list.

I spent some time experimenting with all the different folates (and B12s to a lesser extent) earlier this year.

I determined that a small amount of folinic acid improved my sleep. I also determined that without folic acid (or perhaps with a minimal amount) I seemed to have a more clear cut response to relatively small doses of B12. Other people have found different tweaks to the protocol to work best for them.

NB Actifolate does contain a small amount of folic acid. I put you wrong in my previous post. I noticed the biggest improvement in changing my B complex to one that didn't contain folic acid and by cutting out a couple of other supplements (not recommended by either Freddd or Rich) that contained relatively large amounts of folic acid.

Yes metafolin is L 5-mthf, and it doesn't contain folinic or folic acid.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help regarding the other forms of B12. Increased (dramatically increased!) detoxification has been my most obvious response to starting methylation supplements and I find I need to take a relatively conservative approach. I took adeno B12 just the once, and that was enough in my case! ))

Anne.

thank you for replying,

not many people respond on this site, i was really hoping for more support.

i live with headache and nausea, but i have so much going on. it seems to be that the folate and b12 infusion makes my body hot, like a fever, this started after i went to the dentist within days, when i would eat something or take a supplement. it must be the sugar having a reaction with the bacteria or virus causing a fever, i have never been able to get an answer for that.

i was reading about trehalose also and thought it might be better that the sorbitol, mannitol or fuctose. do you know if it is the same type of sugar? i though the trehalose was more a natural plant form.

so you do hydro instead of adeno, i really don't feel so great on it either, that is the one that makes my body hot, but the nausea with that one is bad, either the sugar or flavorings. maybe i should try just that one.

so the one from fred is solgar folate-metafolin. without any folic acid or folinic, right?

i have read both but wondering whats what about them. don't know which would be better for me, with all this mercury. i believe rich said something about his protocol and about mercury in the brain, and his preventing this. don't know which way to go.

how do you find the folinic beneficial

thanks for your help

denise

 

[Vegas]

how long and what mg are you on now in chelation?
are you on Andy Cutler protocol?

>Yes, Cutler's protocol with some modifications. 20 rounds or so.

as posted above the sugar and sugar alcohol in the b12's are causing me lots of nausea, and my body to feel really hot, wondering if compounding methy b 12 will help with no fillers or sugar added. can find a compound pharmacy that can do the mb12, but no one can do the dibencozide b12. i may have to put up with the nausea every 4 days or cut in 1/4 every day. but it even happens with those tiny pellets.

> I am fully aware of the degree of sensitivities some experience, but you may be mistaking a supplement reaction to a detox experience. Plenty of folks on here have gotten pretty sick on sublingual B12 & methylfolate. Unfortunately, this can be a necessary part of purging the body of accumulated toxins/infections. Nausea is certainly one of the recognized "side effects." Although, I don't recall immediate or near immediate responses to these, so if that is what you are experiencing, I certainly cannot discount a true sensitivity. The irony is, if you really do have chemical sensitivities, the methylation supplements are probably what are eventuallygoing to help this situation. Have you done anything for slow phase I liver detox...nianicamide, oil of oregano, curcumin, etc. Aside from aspartame, I never really had any sensitivities, so perhaps someone else over here can give you some suggestions about this. Regardless, I would suggest progressively cutting back on the folate to see if these symptoms improve before running out and buying a bunch of different brands. If you are, however, going with another brand, try the holistic health products.

any sugar i eat makes my body so hot, never figured out what that was, maybe bacteria infection from the mold reacting to the sugar. yet this started after the experience with the dentist that cracked my amalgam. always thought it was mercury linked some how.

>what your are describing sounds like an adrenergic response...that is, the heat produced after eating sugar. Adrenaline/Noradrenaline can certainly cause this symptom. It can be caused by food allergies/intolerances. Probably intestinal permeability and yeast. It's a clue that you shouldn't be eating that sugar.

you are on rich's. i have read it but wondering if the folate is the same as fred's or has folic acid instead.

> I don't take the supplements nearly as often these days, but I started with Rich's protocol. They both use methylfolate. The methylfolate + methylcobalamin or hydroxocobalamin are key. You don't have to take the dibencozide, in my opinion. Early on there was a lot more "tweaking" of supplements. Best to avoid TMG

what else beside diet did you do to treat gut issues. if i could eat more veg that aren't sulfur or sals i would have more choices

> See earlier post. I listed some things that can help, but I still think of those non-dietary measures, methylation supps and chelation have been most helpful. You mentioned avoiding sulfur foods. Are you sure you have problems with high-thiol foods? An easy test is to take a garlic supplement 2-3 times a day and see how you feel. That stuff just makes me feel absolutely miserable.

Stick with the chelation and take miniscule dosages of the methylation supplements until your tolerance gets better. It's not fun, but it works.

 

[therron]

what else beside diet did you do to treat gut issues

Hi Vegas,
Ok,I'm not really sure that I pasted your quote correctly, but I do want to respond to your question. I had terrible gut issues for years and finally got rid of the problem by taking olive leaf extract. I haven't had an issue for about 9 months now. Because I am hypersensitive to supplements, I started with one drop of liquid, then worked my way up. Eventually, I ended up taking capsules. I am now on maintenance with just one capsule a day. It was only by clearing up my gut first that I am now able to try the methylation protocol. Hope this helps.

 

[Vegas]

Hi Vegas,
Ok,I'm not really sure that I pasted your quote correctly, but I do want to respond to your question. I had terrible gut issues for years and finally got rid of the problem by taking olive leaf extract. I haven't had an issue for about 9 months now. Because I am hypersensitive to supplements, I started with one drop of liquid, then worked my way up. Eventually, I ended up taking capsules. I am now on maintenance with just one capsule a day. It was only by clearing up my gut first that I am now able to try the methylation protocol. Hope this helps.

That was actually Denise's question, but I agree O.L.E. is very good. Glad to hear you are starting meth protocol. Good Luck!

 

[aquariusgirl]

Methylation messes up your gut...all those toxins being dumped there...It's an ongoing battle to try and clean up the gut.

It's a necessary evil...you gotta get those toxins out...but there's a price to be paid too.