Oxymatrine

[Swim15]

I’ve got some positive Coxsackie virus 1 and 6 on labs - this is just via quest and going to do the neutralization method but guessing these are my issue due to onset.

Anyone know if oxymatrine would be effective and/or where people buy it from? Have only seen 1-2 versions available online

 

[Swim15]

I answered this - just found Chias website.

There was mention of an injectable version used in a study...anyone every try this or making one out of astralagus as well?

Not sure if I could find info on some of the finer details but I could compound an injectable version potentially

 

[Hip]

Here are some oxymatrine sources:

Equilibrant • Alt Med Solutions • Better Life • Alchemist Lab • Organic Pharmacy • Chinese Herbs • Acu Atlanta • Max Nature • Biomed

I like the Alternative Medicines Solutions capsules, as this is pure oxymatrine. The White Tiger tablets by contrast is a Sophora root extract, which contains matrine as well as oxymatrine. White Tiger tablets make me feel dizzy for an hour so after taking them, whereas the AMS capsules do not do this (even though they have more oxymatrine). I think the dizziness might be caused by the matrine.

Not sure if I could find info on some of the finer details but I could compound an injectable version potentially

Dr Chia has mentioned that in China, there is an matrine injection available, and he said this may have a more powerful effect. But he is not allowed to use it in the US. But whether matrine is more effective than oxymatrine has not been proven in studies. See this post for matrine injection sources.

Oxymatrine is converted to matrine when taken orally anyway though. It's only if you inject oxymatrine does it remain as oxymatrine. See here:

When taken orally, much of the oxymatrine is converted to matrine; to get high blood levels of oxymatrine, it must be given by injection. However, it is unclear whether oxymatrine is clinically more effective than matrine.

Matrine has a longer half-life than oxymatrine: oxymatrine half-life 2 hours; matrine half-life 9 hours. Ref: 1

Add-ons which may boost oxymatrine include: Tagamet, inosine, Epivir and rifampin.

 

[Swim15]

@Hip appreciate the information.

Looks like oxymatrine powder sources aren’t readily available except alibaba. Pretty cheap if you can get a legitimate product which I’m sure wouldn’t be horribly difficult but still a process.

If someone was down for a group buy, would be very inexpensive and/or I could compound and injectable form potentially. Probably not worth it but would be nice to have access to.

Is there any literature you know of on the bioavailability of oxymatrine? No reason to do an injection probably if it’s high but if it were low then it could be really beneficial

 

[Hip]

Is there any literature you know of on the bioavailability of oxymatrine? No reason to do an injection probably if it’s high but if it were low then it could be really beneficial

This paper says:

Oxymatrine (OMT), a water-soluble drug, has a very low oral bioavailability because of its low membrane permeability and its biotransformation in the gastrointestinal tract.

However, I believe that low bioavailability is due to orally-ingested oxymatrine converting to matrine, which may be more powerful as an immunomodulator than oxymatrine (though nobody knows for sure). So by injecting oxymatrine, you would by bypassing the conversion to matrine.

It might be an idea to try both: try regular oral oxymatrine for a few months, which will convert to matrine. Then after consider trying injectable oxymatrine, which will remain as oxymatrine.

It all comes down to which one is more effective, bu nobody knows for sure.

 

[Swim15]

Well I just ordered 500g if supposedly good product so I’ll probably end up compounding it and using oral plus inject.

@Hip do you have any idea if there are major risks to using larger doses than chia does if titrated up? Like following his oral protocol with maybe 1/2 the oral dose as an concurrent inject?

While I’m at it one more stupid question. I have hardly ever (if ever) seen Coxsackie strains 1 and 6 listed in general literature or CFS literature. Not sure if this should give me hope that maybe the Coxsackie isn’t causing the CFS or crush my hope that it’s even more untreatable. Have you come across those with any CFS patients before?

 

[Hip]

@Hip do you have any idea if there are major risks to using larger doses than chia does if titrated up? Like following his oral protocol with maybe 1/2 the oral dose as an concurrent inject?

I am not sure. I believe Chia's son used 9 oxymatrine capsules per day.

The general risk with oxymatrine is triggering an autoimmune disease like rheumatoid arthritis, which has occurred. So that's why Dr Chia does not use oxymatrine when there is a history of autoimmunity in the patient or his close relatives.

 

[Swim15]

I am not sure. I believe Chia's son used 9 oxymatrine capsules per day.

The general risk with oxymatrine is triggering an autoimmune disease like rheumatoid arthritis, which has occurred. So that's why Dr Chia does not use oxymatrine when there is a history of autoimmunity in the patient or his close relatives.

Appreciate it and I did see that. I have ulcerative colitis but at this point thats the only 'autoimmune' (I'd argue the classification) condition that anyone in my family has.

Autoimmune is bad but CFS is hell so that's one risk I'll take. Do you know if his son has stayed on it indefinitely?

 

[Hip]

Do you know if his son has stayed on it indefinitely?

I think his son no longer has ME/CFS. Dr Chia says if it has been effective, men can stop taking oxymatrine after 6 to 12 months, but women may need to take it indefinitely.

 

[ChrisD]

How would one recommend starting with the Alternative medicine solutions Oxymatrine which is 300mg per capsule? I see some dosing recommendations are to start with 100mg