Overtired pre-crash

[Husband of]

We were house sitting for friends and then On Friday (end of Wednesday now) our friends messaged to say they were coming home they night instead of Saturday as originally planned . Before I got the chance to tell my wife I Could do the packing and cleaning she did some herself, too much for her.

then Saturday morning she felt good but kinda in a weird way; she seemed was kinda euphoric like people without ME when they've done an all nighter and they're overtired. But with this false energy she walked around town a little bit, more than she usually would.
Then she's been in a crash the last four days.

so, i was just wondering whether others had noticed this pre-crash overtiredness high, and whether you've also made the mistake of using its false energy.

just trying to work out if this is a thing so I can watch out for it next time.

thanks.

 

[BrightCandle]

If I push a bit I feel good while doing it and it feels normal and healthy. But then what will happen is I will struggle to get to sleep and struggling to sleep is a big warning sign I overdid it that day or got really close to. I don't find out how badly I messed up until the day after. Alas its largely impossible to avoid crashing when a simple conversation with the doctor can leave you shaking with anger.

 

[Husband of]

If I push a bit I feel good while doing it and it feels normal and healthy. But then what will happen is I will struggle to get to sleep and struggling to sleep is a big warning sign I overdid it that day or got really close to. I don't find out how badly I messed up until the day after. Alas its largely impossible to avoid crashing when a simple conversation with the doctor can leave you shaking with anger.

Do you struggle to sleep the next day too? I think My wife seems to struggle to sleep more when she has a low energy day following doing too much the recent previous days. Certainly these last 4 days she's struggled with sleep. Anxiety too.

 

[BrightCandle]

Do you struggle to sleep the next day too? I think My wife seems to struggle to sleep more when she has a low energy day following doing too much the recent previous days. Certainly these last 4 days she's struggled with sleep. Anxiety too.

I'll keep struggling until the crash passes, weeks to months but the first one will be on a day where I wasn't suffering as much as when crashed, it appears to come out of no where.

 

[hapl808]

I'll keep struggling until the crash passes, weeks to months but the first one will be on a day where I wasn't suffering as much as when crashed, it appears to come out of no where.

Same here. I don't think it's a low energy day following the higher energy days - it's just a delayed onset. Because of that, we can falsely correlate things that may or may not be connected. Took me years to realize phone calls were crashing me 12-48 hours later. I kept thinking it was diet related, until I started eating the exact same thing every day prepared the same way with the same brands and basically eliminated that variable.

so, i was just wondering whether others had noticed this pre-crash overtiredness high, and whether you've also made the mistake of using its false energy.

All. The. Time.

It's so frustrating because you feel awful all the time, then when you feel better, that's often a harbinger of misery to come. I've mentioned before that pre-COVID my doctor's appointments were my only time leaving the house. I'd feel great for the appointment usually - adrenaline rush, almost euphoric, good mood, etc. Then that night, or the next day, or the following day, I would completely crash. That poisoned feeling PEM exhaustion that is so intense that I'm almost nauseous from exhaustion. Mine also comes with exacerbated muscular pain and awful acid reflux that causes constant discomfort along with coughing and breathing issues.

I feel the same to a lesser degree working on the computer or on the phone. Anything that's really engrossing will lead to a crash. The more engrossing and the longer I do it, the worse the crash.

I don't have much in the way of answers, but she should be aware to not push it when she's feeling good. I often made the mistake with the encouragement of doctors and those around me to push myself a bit when I was feeling good. That only lead to worse long term problems.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

so, i was just wondering whether others had noticed this pre-crash overtiredness high, and whether you've also made the mistake of using its false energy.

yes: yesterday.

I just knew it. That too much talking, a phone call, my husband being gone, then returning wiht alot to report on, it generated this too much WIRED but TIRED energy.

It felt almost like speed, like your captured and I was losing personal control. Its like down some whirlwind vortex, I was being led. A whole lot of just too much, yet your participating...but its like being swept in a rapid and losing control somehow.

Because I do like to stay inside that energy window. don't like losing control.

and so today I in fact feel lousy and canceled any grand plan I may have considered last night at 11:30 pm.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Took me years to realize phone calls were crashing me 12-48 hours later.

really struggling with this. Mostly its just my daughter and granddaughter; the two people I want to talk to or be near. and so often the long call, mostly with me listening...it wipes me out.

 

[hapl808]

really struggling with this. Mostly its just my daughter and granddaughter; the two people I want to talk to or be near. and so often the long call, mostly with me listening...it wipes me out.

It's devastating. I'm housebound with close to zero outside contact. I've always loved talking on the phone, but it takes more and more out of me. I also find, ironically, that the more energetic I try to be on the call, the shorter it takes to crash me. So if I'm lifeless and drained, I can actually talk for a bit longer - but then no one really wants to talk to me.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

It's devastating.

yes.

I have a good friend who WANTS me to call (n-=1). She understands this, and hears my fading away and is good at managing my limits. She is so kind and thoughtful and north of Seattle and I could go and stay and she would take care of us and I seem unable to get more than four blocks. I have not seen her in person in 25 or more years(?)

so I rarely call.

Drained. And then drained more. And this has GOT to shift.

My little grandaughter: I'd like to smile, smiling is hard. And I'd like to sparkle and sparkling is compromised. But I guess we just have to accept that its OK. I feel like she will think, well if my grandmother is a mess, then I will later become a mess, too. I see this connection but I suspect the young may be a bit protected from it. And she hasn't taken a genetics class, just yet.

 

[xebex]

Yes this happens to me all the time.
Some people say it’s an adrenaline rush after being too active that then makes you feel well enough to do even more. Maybe that’s what it is for them but I’m not so sure. I feel very calm and happy when this happens and I’ve had adrenaline rushes and they do not feel like that, they are quite unpleasant.

My thoughts on it are to do with the COMT gene if you have the met/met polymorphism it means you can’t break down dopamine as fast as other people. So if you rest for long enough your dopamine will rise and get too high essentially feeling like ritalin (I’ve been on ritalin and the feeling is almost identical) you then end up using up all this dopamine really fast and then getting dopamine
Crash/withdrawl.

There is a condition called PMDD which is similar it cause a kind of withdrawal state from progesterone. It is possible that the state we have is also a kind of PMDD maybe PMDD causes withdrawl from other catechols too.

The other possibility is swinging very high and low between parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system states which is probably also related to what I describe above in some way.

I may be wrong of course but I think it’s a new way of looking at it and hopefully helpful.

 

[hapl808]

I feel very calm and happy when this happens and I’ve had adrenaline rushes and they do not feel like that, they are quite unpleasant.

Exactly this. I can feel really good on a short energetic phone call, but then the crash comes. The more energetic I allow myself to be, the faster and worse the crash but the better the feeling while I'm doing it.

I've never taken Ritalin, but I've considered it. I wonder if a low dose without a huge increase in physical activity might somehow be helpful, but I'm considered about going from housebound to bedbound, so...

 

[xebex]

Exactly this. I can feel really good on a short energetic phone call, but then the crash comes. The more energetic I allow myself to be, the faster and worse the crash but the better the feeling while I'm doing it.

I've never taken Ritalin, but I've considered it. I wonder if a low dose without a huge increase in physical activity might somehow be helpful, but I'm considered about going from housebound to bedbound, so...

I took ritalin for 2 years it was very specific how I could take it, no more than once a week and I started at 7.5mg and ended up taking 2.5mg it was helpful and did allow increased activity to start with but over time it became less effective and for some weird reason lowering the dose made it work better but in the end it caused more problems than not.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

The other possibility is swinging very high and low between parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system states which is probably also related to what I describe above in some way.

really interesting...will attempt to further ponder this possibility.

I know I am messing with all this more, but not understanding the principles behind it all very well.

 

[xebex]

really interesting...will attempt to further ponder this possibility.

I know I am messing with all this more, but not understanding the principles behind it all very well.

Feel free to pm me with any questions

 

[Rufous McKinney]

So if I'm lifeless and drained, I can actually talk for a bit longer - but then no one really wants to talk to me.

I notice here lately, I might be a bit functioning one hour, only to be dysfunctioning, the next. Really erratic.

brain perks up, then checks out. Cycle repeating throughout the day.

My new issue: I promised my adult daughter I would launch n=1: micro-dose. of these ...here...mushrooms I have a small bag of.

My own daughter is convinced that might help her sick mother who has some brain problem. And I am supposed to listen to when the Universe is pointing. So she keeps pointing. Can we grow some new nerves?

Some people say it’s an adrenaline rush after being too active that then makes you feel well enough to do even more. Maybe that’s what it is for them but I’m not so sure. I feel very calm and happy when this happens and I’ve had adrenaline rushes and they do not feel like that, they are quite unpleasant.

I do not see this adrenaline issue operating in my case, at all. I feel almost none of that unless I have some medical thing to go confront, which I largely also avoid confronting.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Paperwork. I have to do paperwork. Its on the desk. Its been accumulating there, for at least 6 months.

I approach the desk, and start to stare at the paperwork and this triggers an immediate Overwhelmed reaction.

Breathe.

Its still overwhelming, this feeling of paperwork that is tied to dictates like: there are not exceptions.

I immediately can't find the tiny usb drive, that was here three days prior. I can't process its not here. It can't be missing. But its missing. Oh here it is, underneath the lining paper of the desk drawer. Thanks, husband.

I opened a computer file related to my career, now retired from. I found this 19 pages of a grazing management plan I wrote in 2006. I am looking at this document, and its truly remarkable.

I wrote this? Full of paragraphs and complete sentences, and brilliant ideas and how to and all those perfect sentences, that once upon a time, I could write.

Perplexing. Exasperating. WTF.

I've never taken Ritalin, but I've considered it. I wonder if a low dose without a huge increase in physical activity might somehow be helpful, but I'm considered about going from housebound to bedbound, so...

I would be tempted to try that. Just to see. Oh yes, two days on Zoloft = three months to recover baseline.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I wonder if a low dose without a huge increase in physical activity might somehow be helpful, but I'm considered about going from housebound to bedbound, so...

my GP pushed me to try the nootropic Modafinil. Insurance denied. I paid for 10 pills to try.

I took half a dose (50Mg). A bit more mentally alert, alert to this illness and alert to the mild and worsening nuisance head ache. I noticed the kitchen floor looked dirty so I literally proceeded to drop to the ground and start scrubbing the floor.

Bad. Do not scrub more than one square meter of kitchen floor.

My doctor was just "trying to help me" get through the airport, he said. So over two years later, I have yet to try a second Modafinil tiny dose.



edit: P.S. - so he wrote down Non Compliance in my file. My doctor did that? Wow thats mean. He isn't like that. His one other patient loves the modafinl, then crashes. Im sorry but crashing is contra=indicated...so my husband saw our doctor, and comes home with MORE modafinil for me, and he is taking it, my husband the pill addict.

 

[xebex]

Yes very little adrenaline for me either except when I go to the doctor and I act like I’m on speed. This is why chronic fatigue is a shit name for this illness.

But what you say about waking up and then checking out to me says “nervous system flipping into different states erratically” issue. Possibly caused by CNS constricting blood vessels and reducing oxygen to the brain in some sort of protective (and annoying) effort to preserve energy.

I’m guessing the stressors of the day contribute ie eating, activity and emotional stress.

 

[xebex]

Oh yes and modafinil was terrible for me. So ironic that ritalin was much more helpful but everyone is alike oh ritalin is so bad try modafinil!

 

[hapl808]

Oh yes and modafinil was terrible for me. So ironic that ritalin was much more helpful but everyone is alike oh ritalin is so bad try modafinil!

I've heard better things about Ritalin than Modafinil for CFS type stuff, but all of this is unreliable and anecdotal. I know Dr Kaiser is a big proponent of Ritalin, but somehow his 'proprietary' blend of 'micronutrients' offsets the crash effects of Ritalin. When someone promotes what seems to be questionable but profitable science, it makes me question the rest of their ideas. And AFAICT from talking to his patients, none of them seemed to have good long term outcomes? I really wish I heard better outcomes from his patients.