Overmethylating but need supplements

[skyebean]

I have been trying many things for the past 4 years to heal from my fatigue, fogginess, depression, insomnia, and inability to be active without severe exhaustion afterward. When I came upon information on the methylation cycle, everything turned around for me. I started with a methylb12/folic acid/b6 sublingual dissolved in my lip, and choline. My temps shot way up, and I weaned myself off of my desiccated thyroid within a few days. My energy levels had improved, but I was still having CFS crashes if I exerted myself too much. Then I started taking TMG. The first two days I took 1000mg per day. Wow! But then I overmethylated, and had to cut down. But I did find that I stopped crashing all together. I also get this great sense of well being from it. I have since been working to find the balance between taking enough and not too much. I am also working in a multi from Methyl Life that doesn't have B12 or methylfolate so you can dose those separately.

And then a few days ago I decided to try inositol for my sleep (NOTHING has worked), and lo and behold it totally puts me right back to sleep when I wake in the night. But, it's also a methyl donor.

I need the TMG so I can keep on exercising, and the inositol to help me sleep, and I know I also want what's in the multi for balance, but I am overmethylating so easily… I read that if you take niacin along with the methyl donors it's like stepping on the gas and brake pedals at the same time. I feel like I have to pick and choose, and I'm wondering if there's an easier way. Would it be okay to take as much niacin as I need to in order to take the other supplements I need?

 

[ahmo]

@skyebean best thing to do is try the niacin. MTHFR epxert Ben Lynch recommends it to slow down reactions. OTOH whenever I've had temporary over-methylation after increasing my folate dose, I've immediately taken a 1mg B12 in my gum, and it's worked beautifully to calm things.

Folic acid is not a good form of folate. But maybe it's blocking things so that you're not having even greater over-methylation reactions.

Please be careful about taking things so that you can keep exercising. I've read many accounts here of people who've had severe crashes and relapses by overdoing.

I've compiled Fred's basic advice, linked in my signature. It's a lot of info, you might find something helpful there...

 

[Mary]

skyebean - what are your symptoms of overmethylation?

I agree with ahmo - try the niacin. It's helped my sleep a lot. I haven't read that's it like stepping on the gas and brake at the same time. I think t's definitely safe to try.

And, it's amazing that the TMG has stopped your crashing - I am ordering some today! and also am going to add in inositol as I still have some sleep problems.

Thanks for your post!

 

[skyebean]

Thank you for your responses… I feel like with my sensitivity to the supplements, I can't really follow any protocol. I have looked over so many of them…..I'm confused about all of the different ones. I started with the one from Myhill, then added some stuff from Methyl Magic (not the folic acid), then saw Fredd's, and I think there's one on MTHFR.net..

My symptoms of overmethylation are crrrrrrazy irritability, anxiety, muscle aches/inflammation, sometimes suicidal thoughts, and this last time around with the inositol I felt really exhausted - but not like a crash. When my husband turns into Satan (to me) then I know I probably need some niacin. I also keep track of how methylated I am by keeping track of my body temps. When I get over 98.6 I know to take some niacin, because as my temperature climbs, my symptoms worsen.

Mary, I have a friend who sent her sister a bottle of TMG after I told her about what I was doing. Her sister had insomnia so bad that she'd been hospitalized for it, and within a week of taking TMG she started to have a huge improvement in her sleep. It doesn't help mine, but I was so happy to hear that it helped her. Goes to show that we all have different things going on…

I am thinking of taking Amy Yasko's multivitamin (the one that replaced the neurological formula) since I can't seem to tolerate high doses of anything (but B12). It looks like it has a lot of good stuff in it..

 

[Gondwanaland]

irritability, anxiety, muscle aches/inflammation, sometimes suicidal thoughts, ...
huge improvement in her sleep. It doesn't help mine

It sounds like magnesuim deficiency to me.

izzy

 

[Sherpa]

@skyebean I also get help from inositol and I've also been able to wean down on desiccated thyroid since starting methylation supplements! Amazing.

I am interested to hear that TMG worked so well for you. I want to try it.
Thanks for your post... let us know how it goes!

 

[skyebean]

@ahmo are you saying that my overmethylation issues could be from a methylation block?

 

[caledonia]

It would help if you could tell us how many mg or mcg of each thing you're taking.

A lot of times people report that they're taking small doses, and it turns out they're taking mega doses. I have no idea why this is. For example, you reported taking 1000mg of TMG - that's quite a large dose.

It would be better to take sunflower lecithin, which has to convert to TMG. That way it takes longer to process, and the amount of TMG it makes is lower.

People who overmethylate and get some of the symptoms you're reporting have COMT mutations (especially the anxiety and suicidal thoughts). The suggestion for COMT is to take hydroxycobalamin, which again has to be converted to methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin, so it goes in slower.

It's like drinking a sugary soda pop vs eating a piece of fruit.

The niacin is good to use if you get overmethylated, but it's more like something to use in an emergency situation. Of course, you need a bit of niacin too, but not in an amount so large that it's going to kill methylation. You want to get into a stable situation, not going up and down like a roller coaster.

If you're actually taking "folic acid", that's not good either. Methylfolate possibly along with some folinic acid would be a better choice. Of course, those are more active forms than "folic acid" so you will likely have even more problems overmethylating if you're taking large doses.

I'm doing ok with Yasko's All In One multi. I'm taking a ridiculously small dose, which is 1/64 of one pill, two days a week.

Try reading 'Start Low and Go Low" linked in my signature below for more help on how to divide pills into smaller doses, and how to figure out what is the correct dose for you.

 

[skyebean]

@caledonia - I stopped taking the folic acid awhile back after I read that it was bad news. When I was taking it it was 800mcg per day, and felt fine on that. I am taking Methyl-Support II which has 20 mg of niacinamide, 8 mg of B-6 (p-5-p), 300 mcg of biotin, 50 mg of TMG, 30 mg of choline, and 20 mg of DMG (plus minerals and herbs and other vits). Then I chew off tiny bits off of my TMG tablet (500mg), maybe a 5th at a time - if I feel I need it. Sometimes I chew on a 5000 mcg B12 (rather than in my lip, b/c I think I will absorb smaller amount by chewing), and once in awhile take a methylfolate (Jarrow 400mcg). I've never had any negative reaction to B12s, and have taken 4000 mcg in my lip (40 minutes or so) right before bedtime, and have been fine. I've just been trying to balance my energy and mood by doing different supplements on different days. I was taking about 300 mcg of inositol for a few nights, and it felt great at first, and horrible by day 4. I took the inositol for sleep, as I wake up in the middle of the night and am up for 1-3 hours usually. The first two nights the inositol put me back to sleep in minutes..

I definitely feel better when I manage not to need niacin at all, though I loved the temporary appetite boost when I had to take a whole bunch.

THe COMT mutation means you have to avoid sulphur, right? But I have mad cravings for onions, garlic, and brussels sprouts. I wouldn't have cravings if I was supposed to avoid, yes? …but the symptoms really resonate.. ? WIll this show up on a 23andme test?

I don't know if this helps, but before I started all of this I used to take tryptophan and GABA for depression, and they helped a tiny bit with sleep… Now, tryptophan does absolutely nothing for me, and GABA makes me feel anxious. So, I feel something is going right there. I have had suicidal feelings all my life, and when I have my methyl supps balanced I feel a complete absence of them….but when I overmethylate - shazam! Niacin pulls me out of that, though…out of all of my yucky symptoms...

From reading your article, I see that I can probably take much lower doses and avoid the roller coaster….I know it can't be good. I worry about it hammering my thyroid. I feel like if I take Yasko's vitamin I might be able to step back from experimenting so much with doses of other stuff. I am reading her Nutrigenomics book, and I vaguely understand why she has such a wide range of nutrients at such super low doses. I will be sure to start that at a super low dose…

Thank you for commenting on my post!!

 

[ahmo]

@ahmo are you saying that my overmethylation issues could be from a methylation block?

You have labelled your symptoms as over-methylation. I was noting that folic acid is not a good form, but in your case it might be acting to keep your overmethylation symptoms less than they might be, by blocking the good folate from being used. But you say that you're no longer taking folic, so it's irrelevant. Sorry, I don't have any other suggestions.

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia - I stopped taking the folic acid awhile back after I read that it was bad news. When I was taking it it was 800mcg per day, and felt fine on that. I am taking Methyl-Support II which has 20 mg of niacinamide, 8 mg of B-6 (p-5-p), 300 mcg of biotin, 50 mg of TMG, 30 mg of choline, and 20 mg of DMG (plus minerals and herbs and other vits). Then I chew off tiny bits off of my TMG tablet (500mg), maybe a 5th at a time - if I feel I need it. Sometimes I chew on a 5000 mcg B12 (rather than in my lip, b/c I think I will absorb smaller amount by chewing), and once in awhile take a methylfolate (Jarrow 400mcg). I've never had any negative reaction to B12s, and have taken 4000 mcg in my lip (40 minutes or so) right before bedtime, and have been fine. I've just been trying to balance my energy and mood by doing different supplements on different days. I was taking about 300 mcg of inositol for a few nights, and it felt great at first, and horrible by day 4. I took the inositol for sleep, as I wake up in the middle of the night and am up for 1-3 hours usually. The first two nights the inositol put me back to sleep in minutes..

You're double dosing on TMG - it's in the Methyl Support, then you're taking more of it in a separate supplement. I'm not sure how much you would get if you chew the B12. If it's swallowed it's only absorbed 1-2%.

THe COMT mutation means you have to avoid sulphur, right? But I have mad cravings for onions, garlic, and brussels sprouts. I wouldn't have cravings if I was supposed to avoid, yes? …but the symptoms really resonate.. ? WIll this show up on a 23andme test?

CBS is the one that deals with sulfur. You can find our your gene mutations from taking the 23andme test, but you may need additional testing to find out functional things like how well you're processing sulfur.

I don't know if this helps, but before I started all of this I used to take tryptophan and GABA for depression, and they helped a tiny bit with sleep… Now, tryptophan does absolutely nothing for me, and GABA makes me feel anxious. So, I feel something is going right there. I have had suicidal feelings all my life, and when I have my methyl supps balanced I feel a complete absence of them….but when I overmethylate - shazam! Niacin pulls me out of that, though…out of all of my yucky symptoms...

Many of us have high glutamate and low GABA, so GABA can help anxiety and sleep. Tryptophan would eventually convert to serotonin, which would help mood and sleep. I've heard of people that have opposite reactions to GABA. Maybe since you're doing methyl supps, your GABA situation has improved and you don't need it any more.

You can find out what your GABA/glutamate balance is from the Nutreval test.

From reading your article, I see that I can probably take much lower doses and avoid the roller coaster….I know it can't be good. I worry about it hammering my thyroid. I feel like if I take Yasko's vitamin I might be able to step back from experimenting so much with doses of other stuff. I am reading her Nutrigenomics book, and I vaguely understand why she has such a wide range of nutrients at such super low doses. I will be sure to start that at a super low dose…

I forgot to mention, that if you do take Yasko's multi, to get some sublingual B12 with it, as the B12 in it is oral, which only absorbs 1-2%. So getting sublingual B12 would provide the proper balance.

This is at the core of what I'm doing, and it's working well for me.

She says her supp is supposed to be safe for all SNP types, so that would include COMT.

 

[skyebean]

@caledonia… Thank you for all of your responses. Yes, I take a little extra TMG, because it makes me feel so much better - when I don't overdo it.

@ahmo.. Thank you for your attention to my situation. I am over-something when I take too many methyl donors (TMG, choline, inositol, glycine)….and niacin helps. I have tried eating lots of potassium, but it didn't help. I have read about the symptoms of overmethylation and they matched mine, and since the niacin helped, I assumed it was overmethylation.

I ordered the 23andme test for my son and myself, so maybe once I have that info I will have an easier time figuring out what I need to do.

 

[skyebean]

@caledonia - I received my test results today, and I don't have the COMT ++ mutation. I am going through your SNP interpretation PDF, and you say that if you have CBS symptoms (I have CBS A360A +/-) it could be causing an intolerance to methylfolate. Does that mean I have to stop eating onions and garlic? Would this mutation make me sensitive to all methyl donors? I wasn't until I had taken decent sized doses over a period of time.

 

[JalapenoLuv]

@
THe COMT mutation means you have to avoid sulphur, right? But I have mad cravings for onions, garlic, and brussels sprouts. I wouldn't have cravings if I was supposed to avoid, yes? …but the symptoms really resonate.. ? WIll this show up on a 23andme test?

I suspect that choline might be the reason you crave brussel sprouts, they are high in that.

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia - I received my test results today, and I don't have the COMT ++ mutation. I am going through your SNP interpretation PDF, and you say that if you have CBS symptoms (I have CBS A360A +/-) it could be causing an intolerance to methylfolate. Does that mean I have to stop eating onions and garlic? Would this mutation make me sensitive to all methyl donors? I wasn't until I had taken decent sized doses over a period of time.

Do you have COMT +/-? Any mutation will cause an effect, it doesn't have to be +/+.

If CBS was expressed, yes you could have problems with any and all methyl donors. There are some tests you can do to further determine if this is the case. The treatment is to stop taking methyl supps (temporarily) and then spend a couple months lowering sulfur and ammonia via diet and supps. Then you should be able to go back to eating normally and taking methyl supps.

 

[skyebean]

@caledonia No, all my COMTs are -/- .

These are where I had issues (also MTHFR c677t +/-)

Here are your homozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

VDR Bsm MTRR A664A BHMT-02 BHMT-08

Here are your heterozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

MAO-A R297R MTRR A66G CBS A360A


WIll any of those also make me have a hard time with methyl donors? I think I've read that I should be avoiding undenatured whey with CBS. Is this correct? I've been having this everyday for the past few months.

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia No, all my COMTs are -/- .

These are where I had issues (also MTHFR c677t +/-)

Here are your homozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

VDR Bsm MTRR A664A BHMT-02 BHMT-08

Here are your heterozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

MAO-A R297R MTRR A66G CBS A360A


WIll any of those also make me have a hard time with methyl donors? I think I've read that I should be avoiding undenatured whey with CBS. Is this correct? I've been having this everyday for the past few months.

The Free Thiol diet worked for me for CBS treatment - http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/
This is an easier diet than doing a low sulfur diet. Otherwise, refer to the Heartfixer page, linked in my signature for more info on diet and how to do CBS treatment.


Edited to add: Having BHMTs even without having CBS mutations could create a CBS situation. So I would give it a "maybe" that CBS could be an issue for you. You can also test for ammonia and sulfur to see if those are high. Most people just end up doing the urine sulfate strips as a sort of "poor man's" CBS test.

 

[xrunner]

@caledonia… I have read about the symptoms of overmethylation and they matched mine, and since the niacin helped, I assumed it was overmethylation.

You may want to run a methylation panel from there you can see how your methylation cycle is actually doing rather than relying on description of symptoms for which I never found any scientific basis.
You may also find the post n.40 below of interest.
Best wishes


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-and-precursers-laymans-version.1740/page-2

 

[skyebean]

@caledonia, thank you for the info on the free thiol diet. I have ordered the test strips for the whole family. I have all of our results in, and my daughter and I are both +/- for CBS, and my husband and son are +/+. I think this explains why my husband's sweat smells like cat pee! I am also wondering if this is why my son was always asking for his bentonite clay water.

My husband and I have both done really well with glutamine as a supplement. I have read in several places that it detoxes ammonia, but I have also read some things that say the opposite. I know that when I take it before and after I exercise, I don't have the 2-4 days of recovery hell in terms of inflammation and extreme irritability . I wonder if that has to do with ammonia.

I am very interested to see what the strips show.

Also, your SNP interpretation PDF has been invaluable. Thank you!!

And, I have one more question. After I got my results, I went to Dr. Yasko's link that tells you which form of B12 you need. I could take methyl b12 all day long, and never have any overmethylation issues, but I feel much more sensitive to the hydroxy. Do you know why this would be?

@xrunner, thank you for the link!

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia
And, I have one more question. After I got my results, I went to Dr. Yasko's link that tells you which form of B12 you need. I could take methyl b12 all day long, and never have any overmethylation issues, but I feel much more sensitive to the hydroxy. Do you know why this would be?

The chart is really just a starting point.

For an unknown reason, people may be sensitive to a B12 that they are supposed to tolerate. For example, I'm supposed to be fine with hydroxy, methyl and adenosyl. However, I got a bad reaction to hydroxy, so now I just take methyl and adenosyl and I'm doing fine with those.

I've also heard of at least one person with COMT doing ok with methylcobalamin, even though technically that could cause mood swings. In that case, their COMT may not be expressed.