News of replication of WPI XMRV study...

[Andrew]

Looks like there are at least two German Studies:

Hohn O, Krause H, Barbarotto P, Niederstadt L, Beimforde N, Denner J, Miller K, Kurth R, and Bannert N. Lack of evidence for xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV) in German prostate cancer patients. Retrovirology 2009. 6:92.

Lombardi VC, Ruscetti FW, Das Gupta J, Pfost MA, Hagen KS, Peterson DL, Ruscetti SK, Bagni RK, Petrow-Sadowski C, Gold B, Dean M, Silverman RH, and Mikovits JA. Detection of an Infectious Retrovirus, XMRV, in Blood Cells of Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Science 2009. 326: 585-589.

Schlaberga R, Choeb DJ, Browna KR, Thakerb HM, and Singh IR. XMRV is present in malignant prostatic epithelium and is associated with prostate cancer, especially high-grade tumors. PNAS 2009. 106: 16351-16356.

Urisman A, Molinaro RJ, Fischer N, Plummer SJ, Casey G, Klein EA, Malathi K, Magi-Galluzzi C, Tubbs RR, Ganem D, Silverman RH, DeRisi JL. Identification of a Novel Gammaretrovirus in Prostate Tumors of Patients Homozygous for R462Q RNASEL Variant. PLoS Pathogen 2006 2:211-225.

Fischer N, Hellwinkel O, Schulz C, Chun FK, Huland H, Aepfelbacher M, Schlomm T: Prevalence of human gammaretrovirus XMRV in sporadic prostate cancer. J Clin Virol 2008. 43:277-283.

D'Arcy F, R. Foley, A. Perry, L. Marignol, M. Lawler, E. Gaffney, R. Watson, J. Fitzpatrick, T. Lynch: No evidence of XMRV in Irish prostate cancer patients with the R462Q mutation. European Urology Supplements 2008. 7:271.

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

> My GP, who is the best Lyme Doc up here, says she is not convinced that xmrv is anymore the puppetmaster than Lyme.

That's not supportable if you ask me. There is almost no evidence that borreliae is present in us. It is certainly possible.

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

> Active XRMV only found in lab mice and not wild field mice - as they lack the gene to be infected.

Not so. They lack the receptor for xenotropic MuLVs, but they can still have it endogenously.

Coffin: "So Xenotropic MLV is inherited as an endogenous provirus meaning its in the germline, about 10-20 copies, in all inbred mice, and in a much greater copy number in some wild mice"

 

[kurt]

It seems us Nurses are the top profession with ME/CFS. I meet way more Nurses than any other profession within the PWC community.
The hepB vaccination of newborns makes no sense to me at all. Some states were doing school HepB Vaccination clinics as well. It's freakin crazy because they are not at risk.

OK, this is totally OT, but FWIW, I agree.

Somewhere on the way to medical prosperity I think the profession lost their critical thinking ability and also their ethics.

You might like this: http://www.naturalnews.com/023610_hepatitis_hepatitis_B_vaccination.html

And this: http://www.naturodoc.com/library/bio-war/HepB.htm

Newborns are already at risk of early-stage birth conditions, and do not have a fully developed immune system yet. They really do not need to have their immunity challenged that way.

If I understood the numbers in that naturalnews article above, there were around 50 deaths annually from side-effects of the HepB vaccination in infants in the 1990s, and probably none from HepB itself (only 5 reported infections in 2005 in young children). But the vaccination brings in over $1B per year so nobody is held to account.

Greed-based medical economics does not work in the best interest of patients. The invisible hand has a guilded glove in medicine...

 

[kurt]

> My GP, who is the best Lyme Doc up here, says she is not convinced that xmrv is anymore the puppetmaster than Lyme.

That's not supportable if you ask me. There is almost no evidence that borreliae is present in us. It is certainly possible.

There are studies that show no Lyme in CFS but I also read a study once that showed somewhere around 40% of PWC are infected with borrelia. There is controversy over Lyme testing, that might be part of this issue. But here is an interesting study that shows the converse, that CFS is present in many cases of Lyme Disease:

Neurol Neurochir Pol. 2003 Nov-Dec;37(6):1211-21.
[Chronic fatigue syndrome following tick-borne diseases]

[Article in Polish]

Gustaw K.

Pracownia Diagnostyki i Terapii Chorb Naczyniowych Instytutu Medycyny Wsi w Lublinie.

The chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is characterized by a feeling of tiredness persisting for over 6 months, associated with a number of other symptoms including headaches, myalgia and arthralgia, memory and concentration impairment. Its cause is unknown, there are neither objective diagnostic methods, nor causal treatment of the condition. In view of hypotheses suggesting a relationship between CFS and infections, 86 patients with a history of borreliosis or tick-borne encephalitis were examined. In 50% of these cases CFS could be identified. This clinical pattern was found in as many as 71% of the borreliosis patients, while only 24% of those with history of tick-borne encephalitis were diagnosed with CFS. Moreover, in the patients with a history of borreliosis after symptomatic treatment recommended for CFS, an amelioration was noted in as many as 61% of the cases. The findings suggest that the chronic fatigue syndrome is frequent among patients with a history of borreliosis.

PMID: 15174234 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

American medicine is certainly corrupt in one way. The AMA limits the number of MDs that may be minted, thats a hard fact. Its called rent-seeking behavior, or having your hand in the county's pocket. Limit the amount of the good thats available, and the price can go up arbitrarily high. All the material wealth and economic productivity we enjoy is based on free competition, and theyre blocking it.

Their scientific thinking isnt very corrupt at all (nor is that of biologists). It is hyper-scrupulous. Everything they say in print is subject to experiment, so a bunch of nonsense stand. Not for long anyway, except in unusual cases. And like anyone, they dont want to harm people directly in an obvious way, though they dont mind doing rent-seeking behavior which *seems* so much more abstract and "harmless" -- that is, we dont recognize it intuitively as a harm. If theres anything else they are corrupt on, its being able to be influence to recommend antidepressant X to patients instead of Y -- but *only* if it is equally safe and effective (but perhaps more expensive - after all whats money?).

Nevertheless, they are not infallable. Though it seems like vaccine safety standards are high, I dont see why you would vacc a baby with something it is not immediately at risk for -- why not wait till age 2 or something.

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Steere published work saying the opposite of what that Pole says -- that history of lyme didnt increase the risk of CFS. Its hard to trust when something is so ideologically polarized. Still, I think theres only a small chance he would lie.

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

One possibility is that the reality actually is different in Poland than it is in the USA. Though more likely, someone is just wrong.

Anyway, when papers conflict, whats left is only very modest evidence for the claim, at best, unless one believes one can explain, with good odds, why one side is wrong.

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Another good pro-lyme paper is Hulinska's (Dagmar Hulinska I think) "Persistence of borrelia" or something very like that.

I was kind of a lyme believer long ago. But I came to think that that paper and others dont really provide all that much support.

 

[Cloud]

> My GP, who is the best Lyme Doc up here, says she is not convinced that xmrv is anymore the puppetmaster than Lyme.

That's not supportable if you ask me. There is almost no evidence that borreliae is present in us. It is certainly possible.

Sorry my wording could have been better. She wasn't saying that all PWC's have Lyme. She knows better than that. She was responding to my concerns that if xmrv is truly the Puppetmaster, and I'm positive, then I should start antiretroviral treatment immediately off the Vistide so that I don't have re-activated CMV. If it's not the puppetmaster, I can let the research unfold while I work on treating the Lyme. She was saying that we don't know xmrv to be the Puppetmaster anymore than Lyme (for those who have it).

Hope thats better...thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Samuel]

Hi Cort,

This is a link to a TED talk by Joe DeRisi on the Virochip. It's fascinating.

http://www.ted.com/talks/joe_derisi_hunts_the_next_killer_virus.html

ETA Technology has changed so much, you can build your own DNA assay machine.

Maybe we should!


EagainTA Doh, I thought I encountered this talk while watching TED, as I am wont to do, but I bet I got the link right here because it talks about XMRV. I think I'll leave it here, just the same, for those who may have missed it.

I like the idea of making our own machine. It's cheap, and if we aren't getting enough researchers around the world (e.g. if they get bored with XMRV or don't concentrate enough on coinfections) then we can have a graduate student somewhere to subset us (and let us know individually) by coinfections.

 

[Cloud]

OK, this is totally OT, but FWIW, I agree.

Somewhere on the way to medical prosperity I think the profession lost their critical thinking ability and also their ethics.

You might like this: http://www.naturalnews.com/023610_hepatitis_hepatitis_B_vaccination.html

And this: http://www.naturodoc.com/library/bio-war/HepB.htm

Newborns are already at risk of early-stage birth conditions, and do not have a fully developed immune system yet. They really do not need to have their immunity challenged that way.

If I understood the numbers in that naturalnews article above, there were around 50 deaths annually from side-effects of the HepB vaccination in infants in the 1990s, and probably none from HepB itself (only 5 reported infections in 2005 in young children). But the vaccination brings in over $1B per year so nobody is held to account.

Greed-based medical economics does not work in the best interest of patients. The invisible hand has a guilded glove in medicine...

Right on the money Kurt....Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for those great links.

 

[Cloud]

There are studies that show no Lyme in CFS but I also read a study once that showed somewhere around 40% of PWC are infected with borrelia. There is controversy over Lyme testing, that might be part of this issue. But here is an interesting study that shows the converse, that CFS is present in many cases of Lyme Disease:

All my Lyme friends also have the diagnosis of CFS. I think Lyme can cause CFS, but not all CFS is caused by Lyme. My Lymie friends can really get on my nerves trying to convince me that all ME/CFS is caused by Lyme. I just say....Oh Really? How about cluster outbreaks? The tics rush the school one day?

Anyhow, those stats are really interesting Kurt, thanks

 

[Ruth]

It matters so much which, if any, studies are not panning out.

Who's doing it, how are they doing it, where are they doing it, why are they doing it...

I don't want to go on any kind of emotional journey without knowing this. I don't want to go up and down in accordance with unsubstantiated rumours. It's hard enough to be patient as it is.

I'd like to know where this came from if anyone feels able to share.

ETA: "Leaks and rumors are sometimes ways to prepare people for the truth, which may not be what people want to hear."

I think that's very bad practice. If you want to prepare people you give updates, you don't start rumours. If you want to shape opinion by shaping expectations, you start rumours.

Bravo, Koan!! This is a very good distinction. Reeves' comment (that he didn't think it would be replicated) seemed definitely aimed at shaping expectations and he might have defended it by saying he was just trying to prepare people for the truth. I have wondered reading this thread if some of the rumors that have been picked up were intentionally "planted" -- I have found this not infrequently done in the hallowed halls of science. We judge Reeves' comment by its source. How can you evaluate something without a source?

 

[Megan]

WPI and ViraCor - Question for Cort or anyone?

Cort,

A few posts back you said:

The strange thing for us is that the WPI has been using the ViraCor screen for several years and it didn't take up XMRV. They found it when they sent samples to the Cleveland clinic I believe. Why did Viracor pick up XMRV with De Risi and not with WPI?

This is probably a red herring; they later did genetic studies that indicated that XMRV from the WPI is very much like the XMRV from prostate cancer but it would interesting to know why ViraCor didn't pick it up. Does it signify anything?"


I am concerned about your comments above as I also watched a presentation by Judy Mikovits at a U.K. conference last year (I think Invest in ME) and she said they were using that technology to screen CFS patients. I had been wondering what had come of this? Do you know for sure that they didn't find XMRV? Or is it just that they haven't said anything?

It seems to me that it is not a red herring, but a major omission if they couldn't find it using the ViraCor technology and they left this out of their paper? I dont think genetic variability would exlain it as my understanding is that we are still talking the same virus (XMRV) in both prostate cancer and CFS. Dr. Coffin also said the greatest genetic variation was between two prostate cancer patients. In any case the ViraCor technology should have picked it up.

But then again it seems too weird to me that WPI would not address this if they thought it was a concern. They are going to be the ones with the most egg on their faces if they have got this wrong, so why would they ignore such a discrepancy? Could there be another explanation for this? Was there a limit on how many cases they could run? Was XMRV on the ViraCor chip when they did their investigations? Do WPI think the ViraCor technology unreliable for some reason? Could there be some sort of intellectual property issue going on? Or could they have positive results unreleased?

I also recall Judy saying at the conference that they thought there was another herpes virus that they were looking for (they called it 5.5)? Unless that was just a ruse for XMRV?


Megan (new member).

P.S. I have been watching this site for some time since the XMRV announcement. I really appreciate the effort of Cort in putting it all together, and to everyone for the great discussions that are going on here.

 

[froufox]

Well said Kurt.

OK, this is totally OT, but FWIW, I agree.

Somewhere on the way to medical prosperity I think the profession lost their critical thinking ability and also their ethics.

You might like this: http://www.naturalnews.com/023610_hepatitis_hepatitis_B_vaccination.html

And this: http://www.naturodoc.com/library/bio-war/HepB.htm

Newborns are already at risk of early-stage birth conditions, and do not have a fully developed immune system yet. They really do not need to have their immunity challenged that way.

If I understood the numbers in that naturalnews article above, there were around 50 deaths annually from side-effects of the HepB vaccination in infants in the 1990s, and probably none from HepB itself (only 5 reported infections in 2005 in young children). But the vaccination brings in over $1B per year so nobody is held to account.

Greed-based medical economics does not work in the best interest of patients. The invisible hand has a guilded glove in medicine...

 

[froufox]

Hi Megan,

Welcome to the board. I just wanted to point out that Judy Mikovits does refer to finding a "novel retrovirus" in some of their patients at the 2008 IiME conference, just after she mentions the new herpes virus, the one she calls 5.5. She doesnt mention it in last yrs conference, unless I missed it. When I watched it I wondered if she was referring to XMRV.

For anyone who doesnt have them, the Invest in ME conferences are well worth investing in.

Cort,

I am concerned about your comments above as I also watched a presentation by Judy Mikovits at a U.K. conference last year (I think Invest in ME) and she said they were using that technology to screen CFS patients. I had been wondering what had come of this? Do you know for sure that they didn't find XMRV? Or is it just that they haven't said anything?

It seems to me that it is not a red herring, but a major omission if they couldn't find it using the ViraCor technology and they left this out of their paper? I dont think genetic variability would exlain it as my understanding is that we are still talking the same virus (XMRV) in both prostate cancer and CFS. Dr. Coffin also said the greatest genetic variation was between two prostate cancer patients. In any case the ViraCor technology should have picked it up.

But then again it seems too weird to me that WPI would not address this if they thought it was a concern. They are going to be the ones with the most egg on their faces if they have got this wrong, so why would they ignore such a discrepancy? Could there be another explanation for this? Was there a limit on how many cases they could run? Was XMRV on the ViraCor chip when they did their investigations? Do WPI think the ViraCor technology unreliable for some reason? Could there be some sort of intellectual property issue going on? Or could they have positive results unreleased?

I also recall Judy saying at the conference that they thought there was another herpes virus that they were looking for (they called it 5.5)? Unless that was just a ruse for XMRV?


Megan (new member).

P.S. I have been watching this site for some time since the XMRV announcement. I really appreciate the effort of Cort in putting it all together, and to everyone for the great discussions that are going on here.

 

[jenbooks]

Thinking about pathogens...

All my Lyme friends also have the diagnosis of CFS. I think Lyme can cause CFS, but not all CFS is caused by Lyme. My Lymie friends can really get on my nerves trying to convince me that all ME/CFS is caused by Lyme. I just say....Oh Really? How about cluster outbreaks? The tics rush the school one day?

Anyhow, those stats are really interesting Kurt, thanks

LOL the ticks rushed the school. For sure...

Just this morning while half asleep and opening my emails I saw new research on malaria, which has 60 different molecular variants, each one requiring the body to produce new/different antibodies. No wonder a person can get infected and reinfected. Moreover, just a few of those variants cause cerebral malaria--i.e. virulent. Moreover, if I'm remembering my sleepy read this morning, when the bug gets into a person, if it's expressing variants the host already has antibodies too, it just fricken SWITCHES. To really cause a new infection and get going...

I have to say, with all the new research on lyme (from the Oct 24 conference--new studies on prevalence in ticks, which is as high as 90% in areas of Connecticut; and coinfection rates, as high as 33% for babesia etc; plus the microfilarial worms in ticks that Burgdorfer found back in the 1980s are now being studied, plus they're finding that doxycycline eliminates active spirochetes but causes them to convert to cyst form so no wonder my six weeks of doxy early in infection did little to really help...) anyway, from all that and thinking about what they're finding out about the malaria bug, I have to conclude I simply got a virulent strain with coinfections. I have to conclude they'll find the same kind of variance in borrelia as they do in malaria. I have to conclude I had really bad luck as the owner of the house whose garden we were standing in, not only didn't get bit by the tick that day, but I happened to get a really BAD tick.

Bugs are so infinitely clever. But bad luck is so annoying.

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Megan,
I agree this sounds somewhat concerning, but what is the Viracor chip or Viracor screen? Both exact phrases are not found on google, except on this thread.

I assume you are talking about a DNA chip, ie a DNA microarray?

One possibility is it just didnt work -- sometimes that happens and just cant be explained really.

 

[froufox]

As you know Ross it was the same with me too...almost the same yr and same Hep B vaccine trigger although unlike you I did have an acute viral onset. Also knowing that CMV has been a big problem for you makes me think that we are kind of similar as when I was tested for CMV 3 yrs ago which is the only time that I have ever been tested for CMV, I was found to have off the scale IGG titers. I also tested positive for EBV but the titres were not as high. I was -ve for HHV-6

But then again I also have lyme and the coinfections too...although my lyme tests were -ve but I tested +ve for bartonella and erhlichia, so I was diagnosed with lyme clinically. I did work in the North East of the USA (Catskill mountains) the yr I got ill and I believe this area is rife with lyme so I may have picked up those infections then. Though I was already ill at that point anyway so I dont really see myself as a classic lyme patient, more a viral one with the initial vaccine trigger disturbing my body's ecology which has perhaps allowed other critters to jump onboard and/or allowed latent infections in my body to become active.

Anyway it is very interesting and encouraging to me that you have done so well on the Vistide and it will be interesting to know if you test positive to XMRV.

HepB Vaccines were my trigger 15 years ago. It was sudden onset and I had no acute infections at the time. Yet now, I am recovering with anti virals.