New Mella talk, exciting reveals

[Sidereal]

I think we're talking about two different studies then for sure, Sidereal. The authors concluded that the slightly but statistically-significantly elevated adrenaline was a compensatory mechanism to deal with lower energy. That was the conclusion the paper reached!

What struck me was how willing the authors were to change their POV when confronted with evidence that contradicted their initial opinion. I wondered why everyone can't be that flexible.

-J

We're definitely talking about the same study. Wyller is a major psychobabbler in Norway, he has put out many papers since the failed clonidine trial arguing that CFS is a sustained stress response. The fact that clonidine made his participants worse compared to placebo has not deterred him. Here's a thread where an editorial he wrote more recently rehashing the same old ideas about stress was discussed:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...athophysiology-diagnosis-and-treatment.41857/

 

[JaimeS]

Are these metabolic findings which we can see comming in the last months really that significant? i gave the Naviaux´s paper to read to 2 scientists outside ME field and they told me that it looks interesting but it´s not enough to do any conclusion and this paper needs much more to convice the scientific community.

Absolutely we need more proof than just one study! And we need the work done on more people. The study is a preliminary study and its results will have to be repeated. From what F & M are saying, and from what Hansen was saying, it looks like we have some repeated findings but not all.

Then there are those who simply distrust metabolomics as a method, period.

I think this is just a misunderstanding of what Dr. Naviaux said

In context, it seemed clearer he understood and to some extent agreed, but there were aspects with which he disagreed.

We're definitely talking about the same study. Wyller is a major psychobabbler in Norway

Yes, I'm talking about this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24493300

The conclusions they reached in that paper, at least, were that it was part of a compensatory mechanism, and that therefore it was an ineffective treatment.

-J

 

[Grigor]

Yes. You're referring to the IACFS conference later this month in Florida. I'm not certain these revelations of who will respond to what are going to be as revealing or groundbreaking as we hope. I've been wrong before though and I hope I am now.
Hopefully the results will be actual blood markers of response and not subjective things like NKC function, deactivated viruses and treadmill tests again in the case of Ampligen

I have the feeling we are talking about blood markers. But let's see.

 

[Sidereal]

Yes, I'm talking about this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24493300

The conclusions they reached in that paper, at least, were that it was part of a compensatory mechanism, and that therefore it was an ineffective treatment.

It's pretty awful how researchers are prepared to say one (reasonable) thing in order to get published in a peer-reviewed journal but then continue to push discredited theories as if nothing happened. What I'd really like to know is whether he prescribes this drug to patients despite the trial showing that it's useless/harmful.

 

[JaimeS]

It's pretty awful how researchers are prepared to say one (reasonable) thing in order to get published in a peer-reviewed journal but then continue to push discredited theories as if nothing happened. What I'd really like to know is whether he prescribes this drug to patients despite the trial showing that it's useless/harmful.

It's remarkable.

"But you soundly disproved theory X."

Wyller et al:

 

[Dr Speedy]

Wyller just like Wessely is not willing to give up his kingdom of lies yet. Once a Pinocchio Psychiatrist always a Pinocchio Psychiatrist

 

[Neunistiva]

In context, it seemed clearer he understood and to some extent agreed, but there were aspects with which he disagreed.

I was just talking about hybernation and dauer state, not about the paper results and conclusion. Dr. Naviaux never said we were hybernating or in dauer state, that's all I'm trying to say.

 

[daisybell]

I love this line from the google translate version!
"They also have good evidence to say that the disease is in the blood, not between the ears."

 

[Grigor]

Written summary by ME-foreningen (the Norwegian ME Association)
http://www.me-foreningen.info/2016/...ofessor-dr-med-olav-mella-i-arendal-11-10-16/

Google translated English version:
https://translate.google.se/transla...med-olav-mella-i-arendal-11-10-16/&edit-text=

ETA: The summary only covers the first half of the first video.

Will there be of the rest?? It was so exciting to read. These guys are amazing.

 

[NL93]

I love this line from the google translate version!
"They also have good evidence to say that the disease is in the blood, not between the ears."

And: "The disease does not sit between the ears!"

 

[Strawberry]

The adrenaline was the only thing that kept them going. (Though maybe this IS the study you're referring to?) I keep this one in my back pocket for all those "it's just anxiety" folks.

Would this be what is behind the "wired but tired" symptom we so often have? That makes sense to me.

I am so happy to see all of this now coming together.

Thank you @Marky90 for your detailed note taking!

 

[Marky90]

Would this be what is behind the "wired but tired" symptom we so often have? That makes sense to me.

I am so happy to see all of this now coming together.

Thank you @Marky90 for your detailed note taking!

i can only speak for myself, but my adrenaline metabolism was fine when i tested it. and i felt like shit when taking it^^

 

[Strawberry]

i can only speak for myself, but my adrenaline metabolism was fine when i tested it. and i felt like shit when taking it^^

Interesting! I have no clue about mine. So something that doesn't affect all of us.

 

[hixxy]

Would this be what is behind the "wired but tired" symptom we so often have? That makes sense to me.

I am so happy to see all of this now coming together.

Thank you @Marky90 for your detailed note taking!

I don't think adrenaline plays any role in wired but tired.

 

[Woolie]

Ha! This is what we've been saying on PR too.

Do you have a link here @Sidereal? I missed this discussion , but it sounds interesting.

Edit: don't worry, i just caught up on the other posts here. There's plenty for me to go on there.

 

[daisybell]

I propose a new name for this disease - Systemic Hypometabolic Intolerance To Exercise (disease) - not sure what the BPS crowd would make of that...

 

[Seven7]

I propose a new name for this disease - Systemic Hypometabolic Intolerance To Exercise (disease) - not sure what the BPS crowd would make of that...

SHITE???? Lol I am not sure if this was intentional

 

[daisybell]

SHITE???? Lol I am not sure if this was intentional

Indeed it was!!

 

[soofke]

he didn't say hibernation, but actually "dauer-like state". Dauer is an hypo metabolic state displayed by certain nematodes when environmental conditions are hard, like when food is scarce.

I propose a new name for this disease - Systemic Hypometabolic Intolerance To Exercise (disease) - not sure what the BPS crowd would make of that...

what about Dauer's Disease? or does it have to be named after a person not a critter

 

[Snow Leopard]

Whether it's 100% true that it was actually the vaccine or not, nobody really knows.

When you are ill within a few days of a vaccine and can't walk/stand within a few weeks, it's pretty clear the vaccine was the trigger.

The key is that vaccine triggers are rare versus infectious triggers, similar to Guillain Barre syndrome where infection is the most common trigger. It's probably still the same immunological process that goes wrong (flu vaccine vs flu infection).