Myalgic Encephalomyelitis is clear to see in the blood

[Oliver3]

Many people have metabolic syndrome without feeling like they can't stand up.
I agree tho that tgis should be chased up.
I wonder if the ' normal ' parameters dknt apply to us. There is definitely a weakness in the collagen.
The fingerprint or lack of is likely diffused around the body . The integrity of mitochondria, mast cells, liver n cardio cells. I reckon they're systemically weaker.
I just hope stem cells or crispr technology steps in. There's something wrong with us!

 

[Treeman]

I have frequent urination, dehedration, always thirsty

This tangent reminded me of the UK actor, Michael Crawford, dehydration and how he got ME CFS whilst working in a large rubber suit but eventually recovered.

“Night after night on stage, the suit meant that I'd sweat profusely, to the point where I was losing all the essential minerals and nutrients from my body. In January 2005, I went into a kind of physical meltdown. I collapsed with what I thought was flu, but it turned out to be something much more difficult to diagnose.

Teams of doctors were called in to try to find out why I was so completely exhausted, depleted and unable to return to work. I had brain and body scans, and virtually every test known to man before eventually discovering that I was suffering from the post-viral condition myalgic encephalopathy (ME).“

https://meassociation.org.uk/2011/0...alk-michael-crawford-talks-to-the-daily-mail/

 

[Viala]

There may be many semi normal and some abnormal factors coming from 1 trait. So for instance if liver dysfunction is present there could be many things that are abnormal but not causing symptoms but a couple that do. I think looking for traits is a good strategy and could explain why different patients have different symptoms. As I said these things need to be looked at on an individual basis. Some may have 1 trait others 3. That would explain why some are very badly affected, others less so.

In the end individual testing is all we've got. The question is what is the cause of these dysfunctions and are they the cause of ME or a downstream effect, or something totally independent. Some of my lab tests were ok even though they shouldn't be, because I had clear symptoms of what I was testing for. Something is definitely slipping through the cracks. So many variables here. I wonder what results would they have with such a large group but with OAT, I think they'd have more success with that.

 

[Oliver3]

Exactly right. We're more prone to this stuff. Why? And it affects us more than ' normies' who have similar constellation of symptoms.
The dysfunction is smthg really integral to our make up. And we're deffo not typically made human beings.
I'm convinced of that with the sheer amount of people I've met or observed who have this condition.
I don't know about you guys but I could pick cfs patients out of a line up ( and no not cos they're in bed). The disease Is so apparent in them

 

[Wishful]

Although in this disease there should be something visible in our blood,

I still think it's possible even for severe ME patients to show no abnormalities in the blood, aside from some that would occur in non-ME patients who had similar lifestyle limitations. Would a disease caused by nerve signal dysfunction necessarily show a signal in the blood? Likewise for many possible brain cell disorders.

As you point out, there are also many possibilities for the methodology to fail to find existing patterns. Rate-of-change abnormalities might be in the data, since some people would be at an abnormal level of a factor at testing time, but that will just be dismissed as noise.

There will be a lot of variation (noise) in blood samples. People with a lot of whole grains in their diet will show different levels of factors in their blood than one with a highly processed food diet. Lots of exercise vs little. Stressed vs non-stressed. Hard to find subtle patterns in noisy data.

I would like to know more about the signals of liver disease and insulin resistance. Is the typical PWME going to show elevated levels of these signals? Did they average the results, so that a few individuals with highly elevated levels skewed the average? We'll have to wait for the full paper.

 

[andyguitar]

In the end individual testing is all we've got.

Testing for cholesterol is fairly easy. One other thing I noticed in the paper... they mention "low blood choline".

 

[Oliver3]

Testing for cholesterol is fairly easy. One other thing I noticed in the paper... they mention "low blood choline".

Did you see jarred younger post on low choline being a key finding in culf wa r syndrome.
Organophosphates are seen as the culprit.
But why only affect a certain number

 

[Dysfunkion]

I still think it's possible even for severe ME patients to show no abnormalities in the blood, aside from some that would occur in non-ME patients who had similar lifestyle limitations. Would a disease caused by nerve signal dysfunction necessarily show a signal in the blood? Likewise for many possible brain cell disorders.

As you point out, there are also many possibilities for the methodology to fail to find existing patterns. Rate-of-change abnormalities might be in the data, since some people would be at an abnormal level of a factor at testing time, but that will just be dismissed as noise.

There will be a lot of variation (noise) in blood samples. People with a lot of whole grains in their diet will show different levels of factors in their blood than one with a highly processed food diet. Lots of exercise vs little. Stressed vs non-stressed. Hard to find subtle patterns in noisy data.

I would like to know more about the signals of liver disease and insulin resistance. Is the typical PWME going to show elevated levels of these signals? Did they average the results, so that a few individuals with highly elevated levels skewed the average? We'll have to wait for the full paper.

Yeah see you're likely going to find more common complications but its all going to be noise because everyone has different lifestyles. Some people can't work at all and have a much more physical presentation that prevents them from doing much more than laying down with very clean diets. Others can but have different PEM presentations that physically harm us but we can push through but it gets really ugly and more neurological dysfunction oriented with more chaotic diets because there is less in our control like my case. Like someone else said there are other very ill people out there with whole constellations of problems with their liver, blood, and immune systems but don't get ME/CFS.

I based on my lifetime of experiences feel like its more direct neurological signaling oriented because otherwise all the differences and wide variety of people that wind up with this wouldnt make much sense. It feels more immune oriented though in what is a factor in the root of what happens. Most of my triggers are in my immune system and in the case I over exert cognitively first present with immune dysfunction.

 

[wabi-sabi]

I don't understand these results about insulin resistance and liver dysfunction and cholesterol. All of these have always been normal for me- you know, the It must be Depression because All Your Results are Normal. And these three are all pretty basic tests that I have had over and over again, because doctors seem to like to repeat the same things again.
I know this is meant to be a composite picture and not patient specific, but surely the picture should look a little like me or us?

 

[andyguitar]

I don't understand these results about insulin resistance and liver dysfunction and cholesterol. All of these have always been normal for me

Paper also mentions "systemic inflammation" and "low blood choline".

 

[wabi-sabi]

Can you get any more general than systemic inflammation? My doc tells me I am full of inflammation after looking at a CBC, no fancy tests required. I don't know the significane of choline.

 

[Oliver3]

Paper also mentions "systemic inflammation" and "low blood choline".

Do you think that's enough for a biomarker tho Andy. Personally I think it's a good step but far too vague to use as a specific biomarker.
Did you see Chris armstrongs latest open medicine foundation post talking about switching of energy shift usage?
He hints at the end that they know what causes this metabolic derangement and it will be explained at another time.
I only skim listened but sounded positive

 

[andyguitar]

I don't know the significane of choline.

Low levels are associated with muscle and liver damage.

 

[Oliver3]

Can you get any more general than systemic inflammation? My doc tells me I am full of inflammation after looking at a CBC, no fancy tests required. I don't know the significane of choline.

Can you get any more general than systemic inflammation? My doc tells me I am full of inflammation after looking at a CBC, no fancy tests required. I don't know the significane of choline.

Low choline is present in such a variety of illnesses it makes it hard to be a Specific m.e. bio.arker.
To me, these blood markers show a system under stress, we still come back to why tho

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I don't understand these results about insulin resistance and liver dysfunction and cholesterol. All of these have always been normal for me

nobody measures the liver dysfunctions, I'm just told: liver stagnation.

But those three things are always issues in my case, having the genetics of Bad cholesterol, tendency to Type 2, and the related stuff.

 

[Oliver3]

nobody measures the liver dysfunctions, I'm just old: liver stagnation.

But those three things are always issues in my case, having the genetics of Bad cholesterol, tendency to Type 2, and the related stuff.

My sister has pcos. And many of the factors described here.
She has a fairly brutal workout regime. Mid 40s.
I can see i share the sane tissue type as her.
My brother has my anxiety ptsd issues but not the same tissue. ( thicker, stronger, less see through)
He does 60 hours a week and runs 10 kms x3 a week.
He's 50.
I've got the double whammy of tissue type that's predisposed to insulin resistance , liver issues etc. I should mention she is my half sister.
My brother has the ptsd element. There is low dopamine on that side of the family. BuT he's a physical jack in box!!!

My conclusion. I have the tissue type/ genetics that predispose me to inflammation described here ( and more issues(.

The dopamine element dedfo cones from my father who my sister doesnt share the same genetics
There's alzhzheiners in that side of the family ( but also longevity. Living into their 90s. ) my grandad was a royal navy commando. I can see that in my brothers ability to regenerate.)

I just inherited a brain sensitivity that the body can't handle. It gets blown out energy wise.
Then it's a vicious circle you can't get put of.

I know I always say this, but the issue is in the tissue.
The synergy between. A high stress mind and a body genetically predisposed to these biomarkers, purines etc points to the cell danger response.
It's a phenotypical illness without.a.doubt.
There's gotta be a genetic signature that way more precise than this smthg in the blood.
If anyone could check out that Chris Armstrong video I'd be entering your take

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I just inherited a brain sensitivity that the body can't handle. It gets blown out energy wise.
Then it's a vicious circle you can't get put of.

there are also the Genetic Red Heads.....we bring with any number of alleles which result in some types of deficiencies that can lead to a tendency for alot of inflammation.

 

[Oliver3]

You a red head? I'm a strawberry blonde ( ahem) curly hair too.
With the amount of inflammation I'm amazed I have hair to be honest.
It's amazing there's all these physical clues rufous

 

[Rufous McKinney]

You a red head? I'm a strawberry blonde ( ahem) curly hair too.
With the amount of inflammation I'm amazed I have hair to be honest.
It's amazing there's all these physical clues rufous

Yup, wavy curly also. (not total frizz, fortunately). I used to be far more blonde, my hair is now really DARK.

(the dark hair is my body is overproducing melanin and not breaking it down, so my lack of grey hair is pathological)

The first question out my chinese herbalists mouth was: asking if I was a real red head. I was insulted, but later forgave him.

We are genetically Yin Deficient. You can read up on that.

Dye jobs. Online they act like that counts.

Sorry they don't count as getting to ENJOY being a red head. Being a red head in kindergarten. Being a red head and it's still perfectly fine to Tease red heads and go after Gingers. Being called Pippee Longstockings in Graduate School. Fun stuff. And males are given an even harder time of it.

 

[Oliver3]

Haha glad you forgave them!
I have no grey too. ( I'm 51)
I guess the question is. Why are we yin deficiency?