My start to healing and how Tendonitis/Tendonosis/Bursitis/Gout can overlap and mimic each other

[Gondwanaland]

i can take a tiny bit of the hydroxycobalamin for a couple days but i will have side effects.

What side effect you get?

Back in 2011 my husband had a lot of pain and saw an orthopedist who prescribed B12 injections. The dr said he didn't know why B12 helped I am considering the see this dr to get a diagnosis for my houlder problems and then a referral for physical therapy and acupuncture. Right now I am getting both for hip bursitis and the physical therapist said it is reverible with therapy.

In the end what my husband had was diabetic neuropathy from hyperinsulinemia (his BG never went out of range). What really helped was lowering dietary carbs a couple of year after he saw that orthopedist He also got a lot of physical therapy that only provided limited relief.

The crystal deposits associated with pseudogout affect about 3 percent of people in their 60s.

The percentage increases to about 50 percent of people in their 90s.

I find it just unbelievable that my parents are so much healthier than my husband and I, even though my father got a couple of heart bypasses almost 10 years ago, and that my mother is on statins

 

[prioris]

If your parents were born prior to around1950 or before, it would make sense. They weren't exposed to vaccines especially as babies and children. Plus there weren't that many vaccines to give. They also had a much cleaner food and water supply. The younger one is hit, the worse things can be.

I focus no getting mostly fats (minimum to no industrial fats) and protein. Only grain I am getting is sourdough bread and occasional organic popcorn. Most of the time the only sugar I get is some cranberry-pomegranate juice diluted most with water. Most of the time I average less than 30g of sugar a day. Any crap in my diet I make sure it is not routine every day. There is hidden crap also. I am always experimenting and trying things now and then.

I bought these cranberry bites with rolled oats and a few other things. It said it was the healthiest junk food around. I figured what the heck. They tasted good but then I looked at the ingredient label. It said it used "sunflower oil AND/OR CANOLA OIL". Canola oil is a GMO product. Many products regale about all the healthy ingredients in their product only to sneak in an unneeded ingredient and poison. I see this all the time. Anybody familiar with healthy food should be aware of canola oil. This inclusion was no doubt with intent to harm. I'm not worried about eating a tiny bit here and there so no big deal eating it but I get sick and tired of the constant deception.

I don't see acupuncture and physical therapy helping except as an ancillary treatment. The acupuncture may help inflammation but I would think anti inflammatory supplements are better. I think the only thing you need from physical therapy is instructions how to do therapy on your own or maybe find right you tube video.

B12 injections can be done on own. I am not too enthused with needles and potential bruising of the skin.

http://www.wikihow.com/Give-a-B12-Injection

 

[Paralee]

Right on @prioris !
Thing is you can have maybe 3 arthritic types at once. I'm pretty sure I have a little osteo arthritis, but pseudo gout is so common with/after hyperparathyroidism, and probably just hypercalcemia (need that one checked out as to why, though, it's almost always a symptom, I hear).

B6 toxicity makes its own little rods that come out intermittently, like pseudo gout, and not necessarily in the same place. I could go on, but everyone really needs it pinned down, because treatments can be different and very important.

I just found out from here a few days ago that bursitis had to do with the synovial fluid. I had always heard it was an old term for arthritis.

Edit: I'm going to try and find some flour that is not gmo and not dwarf wheat, the kind they use now. Wheat used to have a day or so to "ferment" a little. Now they use that gmo dwarf wheat and process as they reap. I don't think our receptors have had time to adjust in just the few years they've been doing that.

Thanks to Gondwanaland I found out a lot about oxalates, etc.

Sorry about this post, things "disappeared" and I had to edit twice, still not sure it's reading right.....or as they say, garbage in, garbage out.

 

[prioris]

Prior to 1950 sometime, bread did have at least 8 hours of fermenting then it went to more faster proofing with yeast. It was known back in 16th century that bread needed to ferment to help lessen toxins because people became sick when it didn't ferment long enough. I am sure that the government knew what the consequences were but that was in line with their agendas. I make my own sourdough. I proof it twice - in the refrigerator and 8 hours outside. Many people who couldn't tolerate gluten can eat sourdough without problem. This is not to say everyone will but I just don't know. Fermenting is just one more thing in the mix. Bread stores very well in freezer.

We can't become tunneled vision about these problems. I think we need to be aware of oxalates and other conditions that increase as one ages. It's a subcategory of decalcification problem like kidney stones. Chanca Piedra also addresses oxalates so i ball park some maintenance dosage like two capsules every other day. The easiest way for chronically ill people to change their diet is in little baby steps.

"In a 1999 study, researchers confirmed that Chanca Piedra has a potent and effective inhibitory effect on the formation of calcium-oxalate crystals and decreases ..."

In my research, I have never found toxicity in reasonable dose of any nutrients except on overdose. Whenever I see a study that says some nutrient causes cancer etc, I put it in the waste basket. I remember the Marshall Protocol said to remove vitamin D from diet. That told me right off that the Marshall Protocol went off the railroad track and to stay away. Even though I get sick taking Methylfolate, I don't see it as the root cause so I don't connote it or nutrients in any negative way.

Pseudo gout is calcium crystals vs uric acid crystals. How does B6 relate to calcium crystal creation. Bone spurs, hardening arteries, hardened heart valve etc are calcium crystals. Pseudo gout would seem to be a subcategory of the calcium metabolism dysfunction. I would guess that calcium crystals need to be addressed with K2 MK4 etc so they go where they are suppose to.

 

[Paralee]

@ prioris, how do you "proof" the sourdough? I have a recipe to start it off with no yeast, but haven't tried it yet. The recipe I have sounds kind of like the friendship bread.

I have tried to connect the dots to B6 joint pain and pseudo gout and came really close, but I was trying to make the B6 and the calcium from the pseudo gout be some kind of process. Then when the oxalate situation came up it hit me it might be that way. I remember one day I had the dots connected but it was a brain fog day and I didn't write it down.....and I could have been wrong.

 

[Paralee]

And yes, the government knew that and a lot more......

 

[prioris]

You probably know some of this already but just to make things complete.

Basic to understanding every bread recipe is weight ratio of flour to water.

Starter recipe you can play with.

100% flour
70% water
25% starter
2% salt

So my first sourdough recipe would be
480g white whole wheat flour
336g water
120g sourdough starter
10g salt

Instead I could have used 240g each of white whole wheat flour and all purpose flour for my 480g.

Put flour in bowl.
Put water in same bowl.
Mix with spatula and eventually squish together with one hand to integrate more until it comes together in ball. Sometime you need to add a very tiny bit more water.

AUTOLYZE to hydrate dough. This means wait At least 10 minutes

Integrate salt and starter into dough ball.

Knead dough. I do it by hand while sitting on couch. I don't need to add any more flour unless I accidentally added to much liquid while experimenting. Usually takes 10-15 minutes of kneading. I knead for 5 minutes then rest 5 minutes then knead 5 minutes more.

After kneading, I put dough ball in same bowl and put towel on it
then put in refrigerator overnight to do FIRST PROOF. This may help with flavor. I try to do at least 12 hours.

I take out of refrigerator and let sit for an hour to warm up. I fold a little but not much since I don't care about a little extra air.

Grease bread pan. I mold dough ball into bread pan and cover with towel. I wait at least 7+ hours for it to rise for SECOND PROOF.

After that, I bake in oven at 375 degrees for about 35 minutes. Towards end of cooking I stick thermometer metal spike in bread and shut oven. Watch temperature rise. It is done when temperature reaches anywhere between 190 and 205 degrees.

Preliminary
I bought sourdough starter dough online for $6 and made my starter from that. You don't need to but may be easier. It takes about 4 days to get this going. Use glass jar since you can see bubbles easier. I used rye flour to feed my starter.

if you don't have one, buy a weight scale especially one that you can zero out as you add ingredients. Makes things easy. Never use "cups" when baking. Use gram weight. So many measuring mistakes happen this way.

You can experiment with changing starter weight, water weight, flour types.
I use a large bread pan 9x5x4 and 720 grams of flour for a larger bread.

There is discussion on when the proofing is just right but I never found that made much difference. There is endless discussion on the nuances of bread making on internet.

 

[Paralee]

@prioris, thank you for the recipe and explanations, with bread, etc. explanations are about as important as the ingredients. I don't think mine has a yeast or starter, but it's been a while since I looked at it, so I'll see. It is a sour dough, though, which I love.

 

[prioris]

@prioris, thank you for the recipe and explanations, with bread, etc. explanations are about as important as the ingredients. I don't think mine has a yeast or starter, but it's been a while since I looked at it, so I'll see. It is a sour dough, though, which I love.

Don't use yeast with sourdough. Make a real starter culture.

How I made mine

1) Received starter culture in mail
2) Put in little bowl.
3) Added 1/4 cup loose flour and 1/8th cup of water and stir
(i always use loose flour not packed when using cup measurements)
4) Cover dish with something and wait a day

Next few days repeat steps 3 thru 4
You should see a some bubbling like action when culture is getting stronger

Put into larger glass jar when it looks active.
Now start building it up with 1 cup of loose flour and 1/2 cup of water for 1 or 2 day more. Should be ready to use.

After using it, just add 1/2 cup of flour, 1/4 cup water and stir.
Cover and put back in refrigerator. feed every 2 weeks.

Now for some reality ... learning anything new can be exhausting for chronically ill mentally and physically. The sicker one is the more difficult it is to do even the tiny little things. So the best thing to do is break task into phases over longer period of time.

1) buy ingredients, weight scale, bowl, bread pan or whatever you don't have
2) get familiar and make starter and keep going ... only have to feed it every two weeks with 1/4 cup rye flour and 1/8 cup water and stir
3) make bread recipe

I don't see you or most people getting around to making sourdough bread for a while unless they have enough familiarity

Here is alternative and what I did first to see if I liked the bread and worth making.

Go to real bakery ... I used supermarket bakery to buy some sourdough.
Some bakery's could be dishonest and use yeast and other things to make faster so buyer beware. use your intuition.

Gluten sensitivity is a murky subject. They'll say one could suffer gluten damage without symptoms. There is no way to really know or prove one way or other for each individual. All we can do is listen to our body to tells us. Anecdotally, people who think the sensitive to gluten do tolerate sourdough bread much better.

The reason I wrote this is because the internet information on making sourdough bread can confuse people and become a daunting task for many chronically ill people.


This ends the sourdough bread topic

 

[Paralee]

@prioris , sorry for another post, but I am interested in the Chanca Piedra you mentioned. I looked it up and it certainly looks advantageous for me, but I am wondering about any side effects that might not be explained in the regular websites people go to get information (the info that is so vague).

I'm wondering if it has any negative effects on calcium levels or pth levels, cortisol, etc., and was hoping you might know a little more that you could tell me on the negative parts. Also, what is the brand that you take?

Thanks if you can.

Please disregard this post. I was looking at other names for it and one of them had quinine in it. It probably wouldn't be a good idea since I have had a bad reaction to Cipro. Much obliged.

 

[prioris]

I wouldn't take such a name literally. This isn't pure distilled quinine. Quinine makes me very sick too. I have no problems with chanca piedra and I was initially taking it 2 times a day 4 capsules. There are constituents of herbs that are toxic when taken alone but the total composition of the herb protects against it. There is also the aspect of how much of the herb it takes to actually make enough quinine to affect you and also the end product it becomes part of. Sometimes you just have to try things and see if it works.

Ciproflaxin is the most dangerous antibiotic out there. Everyone should stay away from it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Natto-Serra 2Xday … not just for gout … taken this for last 8+ years

Why both and not just one of them? Do they act differently in the body?

 

[prioris]

Why both and not just one of them? Do they act differently in the body?

I had peripheral artery disease around 12 years ago in my late 40s. It was so bad I couldn't hardly walk. I did research on the problem and took large doses of both natto and serra enzymes to cure it. It's essentially a plaque clot buster.

There were only a few anecdotal reports on internet back then so information was dearth. I decided to use both. The symptoms all disappeared in one month. I tried to just use one or the other but I found they needed to be used in combination. Almost everyone is doing the same years later. So the reason for using both is empirically based on my own experience and the many anecdotal reports there are out there.

I forget how they are different. It is the preferred choice over coumadin.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks for your reply.

It is the preferred choice over coumadin.

I recently tried Pycnogenol, but I just got exactly the same side effects as from coumadin, so that is another bottle of supplement to throw away.

A couple of years ago I took Serra, I tolerated it for about one month with great gains, but then couldn't keep taking it (will have to re-read my journal to see what happened).

Right now I am taking a low dose rutin every other day - it has been immensely helpful for my joint pains. But I still need a more potent blood thinner in order to retry the MK4. I don't have clots (that I know of) but have plaque in both carotids. I keep wondering what will happen to my plaques when I take MK4? After all they are a repair system to endothelial damage, which came first.

 

[prioris]

Pycnogenol has bad effect ... interesting. Lower cost alternative to that is grape seed extract. They are for all practical purposes, pretty much the same thing. Pycnogenol has more scientific studies done on it and higher cost. That's weird you get negative effects from it.

Nattokinase is identical way the body gets blood moving faster. The faster flow gives plaque less time to stick. You can't overdose on it. Body will use as much as it needs and excrete the rest.

Serrapeptase will actually dissolve the plaque. Lot of China studies on Lumbrokinase which is similar. Maybe you could experiment with Lumbrokinase. That's weird you couldn't take that longer than month.

Still one needs to quell inflammation of the nitric oxide depleted walls of arteries and one can start doing that with Cordiart and Pomegranate. I take many other antioxidants.

MK4 targets the calcium crystals which help maintain inflammation. As crystals get relocated to teeth and bones, it will looses plaque with it also. As I remember, High dose MK4 has been shown to remove calcification from large arteries.

The crux of your problem is how to be able to tolerate the use of K2 stuff. You got a real puzzle to resolve.

You have a blockade somewhere. You will need to experiment and through process of elimination you can find solution. Good that Rutin helps.

I would try using a broad spectrum of proteolytic enzymes along with the natto and serrapeptase.You may have tried this already. Did you try high doses of nattokinase and serrapeptase. When I was addressing my peripheral artery disease, I was using 200,000-300,000 serrapeptase and 10,000 nattokinase 3 times a day.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Pycnogenol has bad effect ... interesting. Lower cost alternative to that is grape seed extract. They are for all practical purposes, pretty much the same thing. Pycnogenol has more scientific studies done on it and higher cost. That's weird you get negative effects from it.

I think the bad effects I get are from K2 inhibition. Perhaps if I start K2 soon after pycnogenol I can get things finally going. I will have to gather some courage to take K2 again.

I have grape seed extract at home, I opened a capsule and tried some, it is extremely adstringent and didn't feel good on my mouth mucosa.

You can't overdose on it. Body will use as much as it needs and excrete the rest.

Such assumptions never proved true with me

Serrapeptase will actually dissolve the plaque. Lot of China studies on Lumbrokinase which is similar. Maybe you could experiment with Lumbrokinase. That's weird you couldn't take that longer than month.

I took it for 10 days actually, and my supplementation regime back then wasn't supportive to it I guess, therefore I haven't benefitted more from it. It caused a lot of crystal movement in joints, worsened bursitis in both shoulders and hip, perhaps the small dose I took wasn't strong enough like the malate.

Still one needs to quell inflammation of the nitric oxide depleted walls of arteries and one can start doing that with Cordiart and Pomegranate.

Cordiart is probably very similar to rutin. I made a note not to take pomengranate, I think due to hormonal interaction.

High dose MK4 has been shown to remove calcification from large arteries.

Yeah, but I need to take something to help rebuild the place where the plaques are going to dissolve.

I would try using a broad spectrum of proteolytic enzymes along with the natto and serrapeptase.You may have tried this already. Did you try high doses of nattokinase and serrapeptase.

Yes, my Serra was in an enzyme mix. I tried low dose Serra (thankfully). I read somewhere that the usual doses for Serra are 10 - 60 mg daily and for Natto 100 - 200 mg daily. I took 10mg Serra with other enzymes.

The crux of your problem is how to be able to tolerate the use of K2 stuff. You got a real puzzle to resolve.

You have a blockade somewhere. You will need to experiment and through process of elimination you can find solution.

My current regime is working well and I am afraid to mess it up. But I think I took some things which had a foundational importance and will allow me to tolerate more and more stuff (as long as I take the right stuff of course), the main one being malate even if only 2x. Also drinking green pastured milk for a while unblocked some issues due to K2 (while worsening others due to xanthine oxidase).

 

[prioris]

I am experimenting with a few things to overcome MTHFR sensitivity. I hope in sometime I can say I made some progress. Hope you do also.

 

[Gondwanaland]

2) Baking soda in water

The alkaline is suppose to speed up the dissolving of the crystals. I put 1/2 tsp of baking soda in glass of water. I drink 6 glasses a day. Some will mix in lemon juice. Some will just use water. There are other things used like apple cider vinegar and lemon which are also alkaline for the body but those tend to deplete me of minerals plus they are acidic for teeth.

My dr upped my dose of pepsin from 40mg daily to 90mg - 30mg at each meal (more is NOT better ) and it worsened my bursitis horribly. Taking 2/3 tsp sodium bicarb diluted in 2 ounces of water eliminated the pain completely and almost instantly. I tried 1/3 tsp in the following day and had adverse effects such as increased urination and difficulty breathing (alkalosis?).

The side effects of pepsin crept up slowly and at first I didn't connect them to each other.

• sensitivity to cold in teeth
• worsening bursitis
• low-calcium cramps and joint pain
• unstable joints
• excess gas
• worsened PEM (I obviously became intolerant to amounts of lactic acid I used to tolerate before)
• EDIT to add - canker sores

it wasn't until I had pain in my stomach ulcer to find the culprit to all above = Pepsin
In the 1st day skipping pepsin I accidentally bit a fork and chipped a tooth
Now the dentin feels brittle and teeth are sensitive. Now I also must avoid vit C rich foods
@Lolinda

 

[Techs]

So much great info in this thread. I'll be revisiting it often. Glad to get confirmation about how murky all these conditions are. I've been through many diagnoses, often conflicting. It never occurred to me that my gout symptoms might be related in someway to my more systemic connective-tissue problems. I suppose we're getting into fibromyalgia territory now (which I've also been diagnosed with).

I can contribute one personal experience: I was sent to physical therapy after about six months of crippling hip pain. (It was so bad I assumed it was a specific injury, rather than relating it to my FM.) Turned out all the exercise they put me through (with the assumption that I needed strengthening) only worsened my condition. But I responded well to violent traction maneuvers and deep-tissue massage. When I built up confidence that even severe pain wasn't going to lead to broken joints or bones I purchased an inversion table -- and that's what got me moving again. Now (a couple of years later) I still use the table daily for general maintenance as well as easing acute pains. I can always count on it for at least temporary relief. Seems the connective tissue want more space or something, and the traction helps with this.

Of course I'm still managing all the "little" stuff -- can't sleep on my side, arthritis symptoms in hands, gout symptoms in feet -- but the larger system is doing much better (so I can do more walking exercise). The first step was getting confirmation from the PT that I could do painful things without worsening my problems.

I used to make sourdough bread for years (from a starter that supposedly went back to the civil war), but I found I consistently do better with no gluten. Now I rely on a pretty good gluten-free recipe for my bread machine, but this discussion makes me want to see if i can adapt it to sour dough.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I used to make sourdough bread for years (from a starter that supposedly went back to the civil war), but I found I consistently do better with no gluten. Now I rely on a pretty good gluten-free recipe for my bread machine, but this discussion makes me want to see if i can adapt it to sour dough.

I would like to know if you succeed at that, and please share your bread recipe!

I must update about my experience with sodium bicarbonate. I wish I could use it again, but unfortunately I found out sodium bicarbonate destroys riboflavin. It usually wouldn't be an issue at the low amunts I use sodium bicarb, but unfortunately I had a boron overload from dietary sources which severely depleted my B2 stores, so now my hip bursitis is hurting but I can't use the easy trick of Na bicarb.