• Phoenix Rising needs funds to operate: please consider donating to support PR

Mikovits interview states the FDA will confirm WPI findings in a Sept publication

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,425
Likes
2,469
Location
Seattle
Hello Dannybex, I hope you are right about the 'psychologizers' but let me tell you there is not a chance in hell that they will keep quiet. Wessely and White will claim that this doesn't prove anything, that those with XMRV got it because their immune systems are weakened by us having 'abnormal illness beliefs'. On the day the Science paper broke last year he was in the Independent newspaper ( respected over here in the uk ) claiming that it was a 'spectacular' discovery before stating that these findings weren't validated and that it didn't explain our 'childhood trauma'.
When I am sat in my boxer shorts, smoking a cuban cigar, on a beach in Spain, having fully recovered some twenty years earlier, the psyche lobby will still be fighting their corner, only this time they'll be doing it without any taxpayers money. We can only hope they are marginalised and ridiculed. Me, I hope they go to jail.

Kind regards, Mark
Totally understand Mark. Perhaps I should've said it may 'start the process' of quieting them down? :Retro smile:

Our immune systems certainly could have been weakened by other things...possibly...but not by 'abnormal illness beliefs'. Hopefully there will be a growing editorial backlash against Reeves, Wessley, and Co. I'm with you...they certainly deserve jail time.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,425
Likes
2,469
Location
Seattle
Indeed!! So let's say 2% of the pop has ( mild) cfs, then 5/7 th of those infected may have lupus/ diabetes/ autism/ arthritis/ cancer; depending on genetics peoples immune system maybe affected in different ways. Could also be that cfs is a different retroviral strain, but I think not.
And we have to be open to the possibility that some people, maybe even the majority(?), may remain completely healthy. Frustrating and puzzling as it might be. 7% of the population of the US alone is 22 million people, quite a large group...

lots of questions as always.........
 

Mark

Senior Member
Messages
5,238
Likes
6,199
Location
Sofa, UK
The embargo issue is a bit of an aside, but I found this well-written article about embargos the other day:

"Does science journalism falter or flourish under embargo?"
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsc...urnalism_falter_or_flourish_under_embargo.php

I don't agree with his conclusions but he covers some good ground along the way. :)

The basic problem that he describes is a genuine quandary, but what his argument suggests to me is that the way research is released and published needs to be rethought and expanded, rather than kept closed down in the way it works right now. At the moment, the whole system seems to be geared around the interests of the journals, around publicity interests, and those publicity games don't necessarily work out for the best in terms of publicising the best science most widely. It would be far better if research could always be released as soon as it's complete, and if researchers were able to reveal their ideas and speculation and theories and early findings more widely...and if we were to start from that basis, and then create a better (web-based) solution to the problem of prioritising and rating 'impact factor' etc, and if the research database were available to everyone worldwide...that sort of restructuring would be much better for science and for everyone IMO.

The author of the piece is very concerned about public engagement with science, so he should be more mindful of the disrepute that science is falling into these days: the people don't trust it not because they don't believe in the scientific method, but because they don't trust the scientists and the institutions - and rightly so, when research results aren't freely available to the general public and the interests of big business and governmental secrecy are now so entwined with the whole process. Simply put, if you want to dispel all the conspiracy theories, stop keeping vital information away from the general public. If 'you' don't trust 'us', why expect 'us' to trust 'you'?

If science is not completely open and transparent, and pursued dispassionately and without reference to financial interests, then it isn't really 'science', is it? The entire edifice becomes biased and corrupted by these sort of practices. Science is neither open nor democratic at the moment, and the general public rightly won't trust it until it is.
 

Forbin

Senior Member
Messages
966
Likes
4,045
And we have to be open to the possibility that some people, maybe even the majority(?), may remain completely healthy. Frustrating and puzzling as it might be. 7% of the population of the US alone is 22 million people, quite a large group...

lots of questions as always.........
I wonder if the explanation might be that XMRV has a really long "median latency period."

If left untreated, the median time between HIV infection and the development of AIDS is 8-10 years. Untreated HIV latency can even last as long as 20 years. Meanwhile, just about 10% develop AIDS within 2-3 years of HIV infection, if left untreated.

If XMRV's latency period was really long, the majority of those infected might well die of old age before becoming ill. Still, some percentage (possibly those with weaker or weakened immune systems) would become ill in their lifetime.
 

pictureofhealth

XMRV - L'Agent du Jour
Messages
534
Likes
7
Location
Europe
Several MLVs are known to be present in vaccines but they are considered harmless to humans. But if XMRV has the capability to combine with them and/or activate them somehow...and if that's what's coming out of the forthcoming study...that would be massive news in relation to vaccine safety...
Sounds like we have 'Rodents' Revenge' !
 

V99

Senior Member
Messages
1,471
Likes
5
Location
UK
This is what I think has gone on.

The CDC is convinced they cannot be wrong, because, well, they are the CDC, that would be ridiculous. They think the 'Science' study is contamination, and must be wrong. What a stupid bunch of scientist's, why would you destroy your career in a dead end disease like that. They decide they need to do their bit, at least look like they have done something, just to keep them senators, governors, etc. off their backs. So they casually do a PCR study, no need to use a particular method, no need to select patients in any way that is disrespectful to the CDC. The CDC knows what they are doing, they know how to find a piddly little retrovirus. What a waste of time, right. And let's keep it around a while, wait until the very last minute to put the final nail in the XMRV CFS coffin. But's what's this, the NIH say they are finding the virus. Should they be concerned. Nahhh stupid NIH, they too are suffering from contamination, but what can you expect, it's not the CDC. So they invite the NIH guys over. Have to at least look like they take the disease seriously. This is when they start to really get worried. The science is adding up, but that can't be, it must be contamination. Now, knowing that both groups are about to publish, they decide that it's not a good thing to have any positive paper out. So they get their chums at the DHHS to block both studies. Get the NIH/FDA back in the lab and find that contaminant. The NIH/FDA guys being proper scientist's agree to this. They want to be sure. They CDC now gleefully rubs it's hands together, and says what the heck, it's a contaminant, let's publish. After all, it wont make a difference. The disease is psychiatric. So they publish, put up their feet and go back to doing bugger all. Then they get the CALL. The paper is now back with the journal and about to be published. It's game over, end of the line. Elvis has arrived and the show is about to begin. The curtain pulls back and we find the WPI standing triumphantly over the lifeless body that was the CDC.
 
Messages
58
Likes
0
This is what I think has gone on.

The CDC is convinced they cannot be wrong, because, well, they are the CDC, that would be ridiculous. They think the 'Science' study is contamination, and must be wrong. What a stupid bunch of scientist's, why would you destroy your career in a dead end disease like that. They decide they need to do their bit, at least look like they have done something, just to keep them senators, governors, etc. off their backs. So they casually do a PCR study, no need to use a particular method, no need to select patients in any way that is disrespectful to the CDC. The CDC knows what they are doing, they know how to find a piddly little retrovirus. What a waste of time, right. And let's keep it around a while, wait until the very last minute to put the final nail in the XMRV CFS coffin. But's what's this, the NIH say they are finding the virus. Should they be concerned. Nahhh stupid NIH, they too are suffering from contamination, but what can you expect, it's not the CDC. So they invite the NIH guys over. Have to at least look like they take the disease seriously. This is when they start to really get worried. The science is adding up, but that can't be, it must be contamination. Now, knowing that both groups are about to publish, they decide that it's not a good thing to have any positive paper out. So they get their chums at the DHHS to block both studies. Get the NIH/FDA back in the lab and find that contaminant. The NIH/FDA guys being proper scientist's agree to this. They want to be sure. They CDC now gleefully rubs it's hands together, and says what the heck, it's a contaminant, let's publish. After all, it wont make a difference. The disease is psychiatric. So they publish, put up their feet and go back to doing bugger all. Then they get the CALL. The paper is now back with the journal and about to be published. It's game over, end of the line. Elvis has arrived and the show is about to begin. The curtain pulls back and we find the WPI standing triumphantly over the lifeless body that was the CDC.
I enjoyed reading your version of how this would all play out so much that I've had to go back and re-read it several times. Love the ending. I like to imagine Judy Mikovitz as Elvis.
 

V99

Senior Member
Messages
1,471
Likes
5
Location
UK
kdeneris , why thank you. I'm no author, but I wrote from the heart. Oh and Mikovit''s was exactly who I was thinking of. Ah Ha
 

urbantravels

disjecta membra
Messages
1,333
Likes
525
Location
Los Angeles, CA
**Applause**

So they publish, put up their feet and go back to doing bugger all.
Excellent! This is the point when I really cracked up. In my American English, I usually render this as "dicking around." As in, "This disease has gone unsolved for 25+ years because our public health agencies have been dicking around." My hard earned tax dollars, not at work.
 

Rrrr

Senior Member
Messages
1,566
Likes
711
V99 wrote:

This is what I think has gone on.

The CDC is convinced they cannot be wrong, because, well, they are the CDC, that would be ridiculous. They think the 'Science' study is contamination, and must be wrong. What a stupid bunch of scientist's, why would you destroy your career in a dead end disease like that. They decide they need to do their bit, at least look like they have done something, just to keep them senators, governors, etc. off their backs. So they casually do a PCR study, no need to use a particular method, no need to select patients in any way that is disrespectful to the CDC. The CDC knows what they are doing, they know how to find a piddly little retrovirus. What a waste of time, right. And let's keep it around a while, wait until the very last minute to put the final nail in the XMRV CFS coffin. But's what's this, the NIH say they are finding the virus. Should they be concerned. Nahhh stupid NIH, they too are suffering from contamination, but what can you expect, it's not the CDC. So they invite the NIH guys over. Have to at least look like they take the disease seriously. This is when they start to really get worried. The science is adding up, but that can't be, it must be contamination. Now, knowing that both groups are about to publish, they decide that it's not a good thing to have any positive paper out. So they get their chums at the DHHS to block both studies. Get the NIH/FDA back in the lab and find that contaminant. The NIH/FDA guys being proper scientist's agree to this. They want to be sure. They CDC now gleefully rubs it's hands together, and says what the heck, it's a contaminant, let's publish. After all, it wont make a difference. The disease is psychiatric. So they publish, put up their feet and go back to doing bugger all. Then they get the CALL. The paper is now back with the journal and about to be published. It's game over, end of the line. Elvis has arrived and the show is about to begin. The curtain pulls back and we find the WPI standing triumphantly over the lifeless body that was the CDC.

I LOVE THIS AND THINK IT IS ACCURATE, TOO!

rrrr
 

Sunshine

Senior Member
Messages
208
Likes
5
Location
UK
Forbin - I wonder if the explanation might be that XMRV has a really long "median latency period." If left untreated, the median time between HIV infection and the development of AIDS is 8-10 years. Untreated HIV latency can even last as long as 20 years. Meanwhile, just about 10% develop AIDS within 2-3 years of HIV infection, if left untreated. If XMRV's latency period was really long, the majority of those infected might well die of old age before becoming ill. Still, some percentage (possibly those with weaker or weakened immune systems) would become ill in their lifetime.
And this could explain how we are 'born' with XMRV, yet it takes on average 15-30 years to develop full blown ME/CFS. The one's who get sickest younger are sicker due to their immature immune system being acted sooner than people who 'got' to 30/40/50. The folk bed ridden with extreme ME are nearly always under 20 at first onset of this happening to them. Interestingly our immune systems don't usually finish developing until mid 20's. If you get full blown ME (not CDC CFS) when you're 12, without help you're rather up the creek without a paddle.

I'm sure XMRV is from birth or a child vaccine and not in the air and caught like a virus in the air.
 

Dr. Yes

Shame on You
Messages
868
Likes
46
According to my Washington contact, the Lo/Alter paper will be released tomorrow and published on Tuesday. The paper will confirm that XMRV and its variants (human MLV-related viruses) are associated with CFS and are also present in the blood of healthy controls.
"XMRV variants" means genetic variants of the same virus (XMRV). What is odd is that Alter's Zagreb presentation mentioned that they also found other MuLV (not XMRV). Frank Ruscetti mentioned similar identification in his lab. I hope these are still mentioned in the Alter paper; their absence - after he clearly mentioned them in his presentation - would be very suspicious. Guess we have to keep our eyes open for that one...
 

Sunshine

Senior Member
Messages
208
Likes
5
Location
UK
Well said Dr Yes.

It's not yet explained WHY the Alter/Lo paper was blocked other than usual 'spin', we shall find out in a few hours.

Your theory could explain why the CDC got the Alter/Lo paper blocked through their friends at the US Department of Health and Human Services. CDC may have to reluctantly accept Alter/Lo found XMRV in CFS, but there was no way in hell CDC would let him break to the public there was yet another new human retrovirus in CFS also!

If this was the case.....
 

Levi

Senior Member
Messages
188
Likes
29
XMRV clades?

I wonder if this hopefully imminent PNAS Lo/Alter paper will discuss XMRV clades?


I have been told that XMRV is a human MLV-related virus. The WPI has been reporting for some time the existence of significant variants. I read somewhere a link to their patent filing that talked about the discovery of multiple sequences different from Silverman/Abbott. I don't think it necessarily means that each variant would be classified as a "new" retrovirus; but I am no scientist.
 
Messages
39
Likes
0
"XMRV variants" means genetic variants of the same virus (XMRV). What is odd is that Alter's Zagreb presentation mentioned that they also found other MuLV (not XMRV). Frank Ruscetti mentioned similar identification in his lab. I hope these are still mentioned in the Alter paper; their absence - after he clearly mentioned them in his presentation - would be very suspicious. Guess we have to keep our eyes open for that one...
I don't think that the WPI is saying "XMRV variants" in the sense of variants of "XMRV vp62" (the Silverman/Abbott clone). I have asked directly a scientist I know who is working with Dr. Mikovits and she said that WPI's work covers all human gammaretroviruses including "XMRV and its variants" and that those variants include all known human MLV-related viruses. That is what was licensed by WPI to VIPdx according to her as well. By the way she told me again today that VIPdx's new serology test may come out as early as tomorrow as well. That would be a big day.
 
Messages
39
Likes
0
Well said Dr Yes.

It's not yet explained WHY the Alter/Lo paper was blocked other than usual 'spin', we shall find out in a few hours.

Your theory could explain why the CDC got the Alter/Lo paper blocked through their friends at the US Department of Health and Human Services. CDC may have to reluctantly accept Alter/Lo found XMRV in CFS, but there was no way in hell CDC would let him break to the public there was yet another new human retrovirus in CFS also!

If this was the case.....
My friend reported that Alter/Lo found human MLV-related viruses, not "just XMRV vp62". That means that there has to be a potential for more than two different types of retroviruses. The most important point you make is that Switzer didn't find any human MLV-related viruses. Therefore, the CDC's test couldn't find even one type of XMRV let alone any other human MLV-related viruses. This means that the WPI will be completely vindicated and that the problem will be bigger and more complex than anyone has thought about.